Originally Posted by dgiharris
The fact that V shows up here with 6s3s shows that we have very little real read on his range or competency
When we are in these spots we have to be capable of thinking through how our villain would play the hand.
Is our villain a stack off monkey that is never folding Ace rag?
Is our villain loose preflop but competent post flop?
Is our villain loose preflop and a spewmonkey bluff tard post flop?
What does our preflop raise do to our villain's range preflop and post flop?
What does villain's post flop bet say about his hand?
What does our action (call or raise) do to our villain's range and how villain continues on the next streets?
To me, a lot of advice in this thread seems like one-size-fits-all advice without taking the above questions into account.
Shoving flop here when we have $360 behind is just spewy. What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying to fold out AxQs or AxJs type hands? Are we trying to fold out sets?
When we shove for $360 we ensure that we only get called by hands that beat us.
Also, before we shove for $360 we need to know if we can get better hands to fold and truthfully the answer is going to be no way too often.
It is counter intuitive but this is a spot where we really want to try to pot control and get correct odds to draw but barring that, if V is not giving us correct odds to draw then we need to be folding.
The reason for the above is because we just don't have the fold equity when we shove and too often at this level villains will call is with pretty much 100% of their donk betting range.
When V donk bets into us on this board for a pot sized bet, he's just never folding. I expect V to be donking into us here with AxQs, AxJs, or flushes most of the time and these are hands he's never folding.
I hate having KK vs stack off monkeys and an Ace hits the board. A part of us wants to spazz out and try to rep AK and fold out the stack off monkey but it rarely works. In this ccase, its counter intuitive but this is not a spot where we want to shove over the top of a pot sized donk bet. As horrible as it sounds, correct play here is to call drawing to one street and hope V makes a mistake on turn and gives us correct odds to draw on turn or we bink a spade on turn. Barring that, if we whiff on turn and V jams us then we have fold.
Sometimes, a passive line is best. I know in general you want to be aggressive but a small % of the time a passive line is more optimal and this is one of those times. We have enough implied odds to draw to one street, so we draw to one street and hope to bink, otherwise we call flop and check/fold turn if we don't get the right price to draw to another street..
I was leaning towards this one too--
If it was me, with the type of loose player you describe him to be I would assume that he has a pretty wide range preflop from what you are telling us. I would have put him on AxXs with some type of flush draw, two pair A2 or A7, 22, 77, or a made flush---
He probably assumes you are strong with your preflop raise to 25 and I would have read his pot sized bet as a way to protect his made hand, whichever one it may be- The fact is they all beat our hand--
However, we do have KK and position so we can be passive and call the flop looking for another spade and to see what he does on the turn-- It is better to be aggressive, but this is not the right spot for it I dont think..
If you dont want to play that way then just fold-- it doesnt make any sense to me why you would raise unless you just wanted to gamble your chips..