$400 NLHE Full Ring: KK..AIPF? 350sh BBs deep

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Poker_play

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Live, $2/5. Hero has $1800 behind, 2 hours into a LAGTARD session. Juicy table.
Hero UTG, dealt Ks Kd.
Hero opens to $25. 3 tagfish (around $600 behind each) call, Button raises to $70. Hero reraises to $230...3 folds..Button makes it $700.
Hero?
Button's either a semi-pro or pro...has more $$ then god on the table, and definitely kills the game. He's TAG for the most part, but definitely able to change it up. He's definitely played back at me a bit in the session (recognizing me as lagtard)...but man, i don't know if he can bluff this cold, pre? Will he GII with any worse hands?
Also, seriously thought about flatting w/KK to keep all the fish in (and at least 2 of them definitely would have called). Thoughts on if thats more +EV?
 
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baudib1

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I'd fold and not tell anyone what I had.
 
ovitoo

ovitoo

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Idk I'd say he either SERIOUSLY overplayed QQ or hes got you. No way JJ gets 700 in the middle pre on a 2/5 tbl.

Flatting is only good if you're good enough to fold it (even w/o an A otf). You would need a sick/dry flop if you get 4 ppl in the hand. Not sure what a dry flop would be for 4 handed lol. Pretty much shuts down any bet/bet/bet line
 
youregoodmate

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Def 4 bet, we still dont want a 4 way pot. Think just grit and fold, then say nice bluff and get him to turn over his aces.
 
JCgrind

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Would he really make it 700 here w AA? I doubt it. I'd flat and just shove any non A flop.
LOLJKS I'd shit myself
 
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Poker_play

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So def 4bet? Eh I feel like flatting gives villains an opportunity to make huge mistakes (really the key to winning live lol) with dominated ranges. I mean whats flatting here..QJs? KQs? AQ, AJ? I love KK vs them with alot in the middle, especially when they flop some equity. Axx flop is an easy fold, most other flops are great. But yeah, 4 handed is just too high variance.
As played, you're a bunch of nits.

All of you (well besides choop haha)
lol JK.
 
JCgrind

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I know you didn't fold it, so what did he have lol
 
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RamdeeBen

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If he knows you're a lagtard then I think it's fine in general.

I mean, he's obs squeezing the action vs you then you 4bet leveling him that you're actually strong, he then realizes you're now leveling and he 5bets to 700 but meh it seems quite strong he's like sticking in 700 with half his stack with air/weak pairs..so maybe it's one of those sigh spots he pick sup aces.

I guess he could do this vs a lagtard with JJ/QQ/A,K
 
JCgrind

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^ if hes thinking this much then he knows that OP never folds PF (im sorry sam, but you know its true)

"Facing a 4b with QJs... yeah but i could flop good!" lol

knowing this, i dont think hes getting that frisky with aces. i mean, even youre going to have to fold your QJs for 700
 
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Poker_play

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Hell yeah choop! Lol If I had qjs the only question is call or gii?


Real result; I folded kk preflop for the second time in my life lol(First was when villain shoved and said I HATE THEsE THEY ALwAYS MAKE ME LOSE and showed aces before I got to act lol)

Glad to see some other folds here. Villains clearly repping aa..but sometimes so hard to put live players on a specific hand. He could be easily overplaying jj+ or aks..see that so often-those hands just don't fold pre with some people, period. Also w me being a lagtard and him a pro there has to bbe a non zero % chance he turns up with air here and is just playing mind games.


(Villain mucked)
 
youregoodmate

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So you agreed with us ... 'bunch of nits'
 
JCgrind

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Hell yeah choop! Lol If I had qjs the only question is call or gii?

lmao.

yeah this is the part where you go "srsly, show me your cards ill buy you a beer or some shit" lol
 
hackmeplz

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Actually pretty easy fold given his sizing. No one bluffs with such ridiculous sizing and if they do they're so awful you're gonna win their money later anyway. 4b pretty mandatory too so many people just gonna call with so much random shit thinking "omg we're deep"
 
JCgrind

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Actually pretty easy fold given his sizing. No one bluffs with such ridiculous sizing and if they do they're so awful you're gonna win their money later anyway. 4b pretty mandatory too so many people just gonna call with so much random shit thinking "omg we're deep"

X3 the 4b? No one sizes 5bs like that with the nuts either, let alone anything, esp considering villain basically minraised and did so knowing that most likely everyone would flat call. Sam opens 25, 3 callers, button raises TO $70? Dafuq? As if this is aces. This is two guys squeezing eachother back and forth (err.. no homo lol) Except for once, Sam actually had a hand here.

Quite literally the only person who sizes aces like this is someone who is playing with scared money thinking "argh we're too deep, it's too sick if he outflops me cos I'll get stacked". live pros aren't gunna be thinking like this.

You can't 6b shove lol, but IMO villain can be doing this with QQ and maybe even with something retarded, since he has to know that Sams poker strategy is '**** folding, ever. Cbets, raises and bluff shoves 4lyf'

The more I think about this, the more I think KK is the nuts here
 
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hackmeplz

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If you think live pros are not scared money, you clearly don't understand live pros. They're almost all super under-rolled (in terms of playing for a living) scared money nit bumhunters.
 
JCgrind

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sam could you clarify ^ this for me? i cant see a guy who sam has regularly witnessed crushing 2/5 being underrolled
 
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Poker_play

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I don't know what is considered 'rolled' for a 2/5 live cash pro that lives @ the casino, in terms of playing for a living.

If you mean 30 BI (15k?) Yeah he has that..he has like 1/3 of that on the table in this hand lol. Now if you mean 100BI + I cant tell you w certainty but in the 5 or so times I've played w him he's totally crushed tbl @ a sick winrate, better than mine, and I'm up around 100 BI this year just playing casually...so id imagine he's loaded.

(Can't be certain tho, he could be a total degenerate on blackjack tbls...or tilt like hell when he runs bad..or play underrolled @ bigger games....plus he has to use profit to paybills..so who knows)

Whiich btw brings a question I've been meaning to ask lol....what would you consider rolled (for a high variance, laggy player..me...that generally kills 2/5) to give a legitimate shot at going pro? I've seen these casino regs switch a lot back to 1/2 (I guess to totally dominate and recoup if running bad)..is that standard? Or are they really underrolled and grindin out a little to ensure they survive?
 
JCgrind

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id want 50minimum. if i was doing 40hr weeks or whatever (obv times goign to be very dependent upon how players are during their sessions) id probably only go back to 1/2 if 2/5 games were rly dry
 
hackmeplz

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Think about the fact that as a 2/5 regular who plays deep, you will routinely be put in situations where you might have to play a 3-5k pot. Even if you have a 50k roll (which 99.999% of 2/5 regulars do not) the amount that could end up in this particular pot (3.6k) is going to make an impact on your roll. Most people who play 2/5 would consider a 3.6k swing to be rather large, so how many can really not be scared money in this situation and bluff where maybe the ev of the bluff might be +$20 or something knowing that in the process they could get involved in a 3.6k pot?

But yeah rule #1 is that live pros are not as rich as you think. There's rent to pay, gas, food (which is expensive at casinos), and most poker players are not exactly the best at managing money and many blow money in the pits. I think most 5/10 "pros" have net worths of 30k or less. And I think the ones who sit with 15-20k are probably sitting with the majority of their net worth at that table. 2/5 regs I'd imagine average net worth is in the 5-10k range.
 
hackmeplz

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And I think being a pro at 2/5 is going to be pretty tough. I'd want 100k minimum and be playing 5/10 (could play 2/5 when 5/10 was bad/not running) regularly though and would want to be one of the better regulars in the 5/10 game at my casino (not all that hard if you have a brain but some 5/10 games have actually begun to get a bit tough since BF).
 
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