$400 NLHE Full Ring: KK against old man - live

U

Ubercroz

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So the basic deal is this. I've been at the table for a few hours at this point, and am slightly ahead. There is an older fellow at the table. I have found in general that older guys playing at these stakes tend to be very tight players. Like rock tight. This guy had been pretty well filling that bill.

I have two questions for this hand - 1 is preflop. Oh, this is $500nl.

Old Villain UTG - $240
Me, Handsom Hero MP - ~$600
Young Villain BB - $480

Dealt Preflop KhKd

Old man leads out for $45(!).


So, do I just call this? I have a hard time imagining him doing this with AK, AA seems likely, but it could be QQ too. Betting doesn't really give me any information because I think he shoves no matter what. If I am ahead a call may induce one of the fish (young villain) to call.

The problem is this, if I call I am basically wanting to see an A or a K. If an A hits and he slows down I am good. If a K hits I'm still good (obv.) but if no A hits, wtf do I do on that flop.

This is a very villain specific question because his range is so so small. I actually don't think this is QQ much.

Hero calls, Young Villain Calls.

Pot is $135.

Flop: Ks 8d 3h

Old Man bets $150


So, the second question. I still have the young fish to act after me, my first thought is I should just shove and get the old man's money. However, the other guy who has been pretty fishy all night (down like $1.5k) and may call if I call. There are no real draws out there though. So I would just be hoping that he hit and can make that over pot sized call. My thoughts regarding call are that I am pretty sure I am getting the old man's stack in the pot on the turn no matter what, so I should be able to call comfortably with that in mind.

All that being said, I called.

Anyway, I mostly thought this was interesting because I very strongly considered folding preflop just because I was certain what this guys range was. I don't think there are any super tough decisions, but I wanted to hear peoples thoughts.
 
John A

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Since it's live, it's best to just post what the blinds are. There are too many min / max buy-ins with different stakes around the world to know what raising 45 means. I assume it's $2/5, but...

The guy is half stacked, so calling is ideal pre-flop. Not much else interesting in the hand really though. Raising the flop would be a gigantic mistake.
 
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Since it's live, it's best to just post what the blinds are. There are too many min / max buy-ins with different stakes around the world to know what raising 45 means. I assume it's $2/5, but...

The guy is half stacked, so calling is ideal pre-flop. Not much else interesting in the hand really though. Raising the flop would be a gigantic mistake.

Thanks, fair point 2$/5$ blinds. I almost just posted the pre-flop, but figured I would put the flop in as well, since that changed the dynamic some. I don't think the potential fish changes the preflop action much.
 
OzExorcist

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Just calling the flop seems right to me - old man only has $45 behind at this stage so you've gotta figure that money is going in regardless by the end of the hand. If you raise then you almost certainly lose the other fish, if you flat then there's at least a chance he'll come along (or even better, shove over the top, depending on what kind of fish he is).

Preflop is a little bit more difficult to judge, it kinda depends what the norm for this game has been. Big open raises aren't uncommon, I've played in $2/$3 games where $15 is the standard open raise, for example.

9BB is a lot even by those standards though. It also feels like exactly the kind of bet that old nits make with big pairs because they don't want to get drawn out on, and since you've already got KK this is going to be AA a lot of the time (the same old nits usually aren't willing to commit that much with a 'drawing hand' like AK). It might be QQ, but I think it's usually AA.

If we think he's the kind of nit that will get away from AA if he sees a wet board, then I can definitely see value in calling as there's a good chance we can bluff him out. If he's the stubborn kind that's in for his whole stack regardless once he's committed this much, and we're basically drawing to a king... then I hate to suggest folding kings preflop, but 'I hope I hit a two-outer' isn't a great plan either.
 
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... I hate to suggest folding kings preflop, but 'I hope I hit a two-outer' isn't a great plan either.

This was pretty much my exact thought at the time. Fortunately (like all fish) I got my two outer.
 
the lab man

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why u not pushing/raising pre flop with Ks
 
Mr Sandbag

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Just get it in pre.

+1

Not sure why you don't think the old man is doing it with QQ.

Let's flip the situation. Say you open UTG with KK and the old man jams from MP. Are you folding? I think that'd be a mistake in 100bb poker, especially against a half-stack.

Also, if you are so sure his range is AA only, why wouldn't you fold preflop? He's only got $240, so set mining isn't profitable.

Just gii pre. Even if his range is as tight as QQ+, you have nearly 50% equity.
 
SeaRun

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I had nearly the exact same situation in $5 NL last night.

Villain is 6/4 with 600 hands in, so we know he doesn't play junk. I was UTG with KK and raised to 3-1/2 bbs, folded to the nit on the button who 3-bet me for 10 bbs.

3 choices obviously, and right now, I wasn't folding. Call or raise - my line of thought was the same as OP, suspecting he had As or Qs, but discounting AK or pairs below Qs. I called, not wanting to 4 bet at that point. I was thinking I had a 50/50 chance and didn't want to risk the stack on a flip, and to be honest, not sure I trusted my instincts, maybe only As was in his range at that point.

Flop comes A-9-3 rainbow. Now what do I do? Right or wrong, I donk bet 1/2 pot and he shoved on me. I folded.

Similar situation pre, totally different post-flop.

Personally, I normally wouldn't shove Ks pre against a tight nit, but maybe I ain't got the noogies to play the game right in this situation.


EDIT:

I had ~ 160 bbs and he had me covered

2nd EDIT:

If he has KK too, and we both end up AI, we'll lose nearly as much to rake (maybe more) as we have in the pot pre-flop. So in a way, that's more or less a losing situation too.
 
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U

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+1

Not sure why you don't think the old man is doing it with QQ.

Let's flip the situation. Say you open UTG with KK and the old man jams from MP. Are you folding? I think that'd be a mistake in 100bb poker, especially against a half-stack.

Also, if you are so sure his range is AA only, why wouldn't you fold preflop? He's only got $240, so set mining isn't profitable.

Just gii pre. Even if his range is as tight as QQ+, you have nearly 50% equity.

You may be right. He could be doing it with QQ as well, I just discount it a little.

I very nearly did fold, and think it may have been a mistake not to.

I probably fold my KK to this guy if he jams it all in preflop from middle position.
 
A

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You may be right. He could be doing it with QQ as well, I just discount it a little.

I very nearly did fold, and think it may have been a mistake not to.

I probably fold my KK to this guy if he jams it all in preflop from middle position.

Unless you've seen these old guys show anything other that rock premiums, KK is asking to tread water.

As played; given that we have the button postflop, I'm electing to flat since it gives the young BB fish a chance to level himself into a float. (Unless we can shove and make it look like we're trying to just isolate against the old guy with a weak hand)
 
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Pretty clear cut call/call situation. If there is a call in front of you, I'm raising to get the old man's stack in preflop. No reason to raise pre IMO as we can probably expect a c-bet out of his range, but he may find a fold with AQ or something
 
OzExorcist

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Not sure why you don't think the old man is doing it with QQ.

Let's flip the situation. Say you open UTG with KK and the old man jams from MP. Are you folding? I think that'd be a mistake in 100bb poker, especially against a half-stack.

Also, if you are so sure his range is AA only, why wouldn't you fold preflop? He's only got $240, so set mining isn't profitable.

Just gii pre. Even if his range is as tight as QQ+, you have nearly 50% equity.

Reversing the situations I agree it'd be a pretty straightforward call: with that action, there's a much greater chance the old man can be pushing QQ, maybe even JJ. He's likely to think those kind of hands are ahead of whatever the kids are raising from UTG these days, but he doesn't want to play postflop against all those drawing hands they like to play. He's probably doing exactly the same thing with AA as well, but at least there's a range that we're ahead of.

As for the wisdom of calling of we're "sure" he has AA... as I mentioned above, it might be profitable if he's the kind of nitty old man that's looking for any excuse to make the hero fold postflop, because there's a good chance we can just bluff him out. If he's the stubborn type though then I agree, we don't have the odds to set mine him.
 
Figaroo2

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How many hands had you seen him play in the session? Even a nit might get tempted to play JJ if hes 1st in and been sat out for hours.
Its such a situational play every scrap of info is crucial for trying to range him properly. Unless you know for sure he only plays AA and KK then you cant fold preflop. The dream flop as played means calling is obvious to get more out of the younger fish.
 
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