$400 NLHE Full Ring: Did I play it wrong or could i have played it different

2/5 game at local casino.
I am in middle position with QsQc with a stack of around 1200. So action preflop starts off utg limps then fold to me and i raise to 25 (standard raise at the table) everyone folds to button who calls with a stack of 450. small and big blind fold and utg calls. Flop comes out 7c8c9s utg leads out for 60 with a stack of 210. (Have mixed reads on the guy seen him donk bet with draws but also with top pair or two pair) I think if he had more I fold or just flat but because he didn't have much remaining i end up raising to 130 basically committing myself. I wasn't to worried about button she was playing pretty tight so i figured she had aj,aq, kq hands like that plus she had the motion of folding already. So back to utg and tanks for a few seconds and shoves and end up calling the rest. He turns over 78 for two pair and i didn't improve. I think i was more just frustrated that i couldn't win with any over pairs that I just got it in instead of thinking that he probably has two pair or draw so just call the flop to see what he does on turn.

Flop is terrible for our hand, raising flop is even worse. BTN will have you beat a non-zero % of time too. Call flop and re-eval on turn.

Ya i think call flop was best play to see what he does because depending on turn if it comes a straight card or flush card i think i could steal because of how much utg has left in stack

I don't like the raise, and I doubt calling would be any better. Only a Queen improves your hand. A Jack, Ten, Six, King, or Ace creates a worse board for you. A brick doesn't really change anything, and if you call and the button calls, you are probably folding the turn. As tough as it may be, fold and move on.

Mr Sandbag said:

I don't like the raise, and I doubt calling would be any better. Only a Queen improves your hand. A Jack, Ten, Six, King, or Ace creates a worse board for you. A brick doesn't really change anything, and if you call and the button calls, you are probably folding the turn. As tough as it may be, fold and move on.

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Folding here is hugely exploitable. I'm not shocked when plenty of draws and top pairs bet out here. Bottom two pair or sets can be bluffed out in position with the proper turn/river cards. This is a simple call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Mr Sandbag said:

I don't like the raise, and I doubt calling would be any better. Only a Queen improves your hand. A Jack, Ten, Six, King, or Ace creates a worse board for you. A brick doesn't really change anything, and if you call and the button calls, you are probably folding the turn. As tough as it may be, fold and move on.

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folding is too weak , villain is capable of betting draws so we are likely in front here and the J , T ,6, K makes the board more scary for us but the board looks scarier for villain also . If he checks turn we can bet or even check behind and try to showdown cheap. A brick makes a big difference because if villain now checks we can narrow his range to TP / draws more confidently and loose 2 pair ,sets.

kanselau said:

folding is too weak , villain is capable of betting draws so we are likely in front here and the J , T ,6, K makes the board more scary for us but the board looks scarier for villain also . If he checks turn we can bet or even check behind and try to showdown cheap. A brick makes a big difference because if villain now checks we can narrow his range to TP / draws more confidently and loose 2 pair ,sets.

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Somewhat contradictory. You're either working under the assumption that the villain has draws well within his range or he doesn't. If he has draws within his range, yes, you may be ahead on the flop, but in that case, those possible turn cards are NOT scarier for the villain than they are for us. You can't continue the hand with two different reads: he is either scared of drawing cards on the turn or he's hoping for one.

That being said, OP already said villain has donk bet draws before, so you have to put it in his range. He could also be on any number of Axs or A9. OP would rather not see almost half the cards in the deck on the turn/river. Shove all of it or fold, but I'd fold. Villain probably isn't calling a flop shove with anything that doesn't beat you.

miko122 said:

2/5 game at local casino.
I am in middle position with QsQc with a stack of around 1200. So action preflop starts off utg limps then fold to me and i raise to 25 (standard raise at the table) .

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Why raise the standard raise?

Why not raise $35 or $45 or $55???

I'm not a big fan of standard anything. What is the point of having awesome poker skills if you just play like everyone else at the table?

I'd much rather you raised $25 with JT, T9, 87, QJ, etc since you could then rep AK, KQ, KK, QQ post flop and thus you are getting more value out of those hands...

but when you raise "the standard" raise amount with strong value hands, you end up being exploitable.

The old school thoughts regarding deception was that we could achieve deception by raising the same amount with our entire range. The problem though is that this fails to exploit the leaks most live players have, namely they like to overcall. Also, most live players don't pay attention anyways and play level 1 poker.

I'm a much bigger fan of varying our bet sizes based on table dynamics and the situation we encounter. In fact, I like to throw in massive overbets 5% of the time and I love it when my villains level themselves with "Why so much".

Other day I was playing 1/2nl eff stacks $200. I was in the SB with KK. CO raised $15, BTN called, and then I shoved for $200. CO called and BTN called.

CO had TT, BTN had JJ and they both said, "I thought you had an underpair because you bet so much like you didn't want a call and were trying to steal..."

so basically my point is that as thinking players we really shouldn't be doing anything that is "standard". All of our actions need to have a reason and we should be one level above our opponents...

When you raise the "standard" with QQ, you really set yourself up to be out played by the other thinking players at the table. The only way raising the standard $25 with QQ works to your advantage is if you are raising fairly wide and have a decent raising frequency such that your villains think you are raising with garbage... And I would guess that is not the case.

food for thought.