$400 NLHE Full Ring: hit low 2 pair on river - checks to me

teepack

teepack

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
2,317
Awards
1
Chips
14
This happened at the Commerce Casino over the weekend. I was playing $2/$3 with a bunch of regs (I'm the out of town fish). I am in last position. About six players limp in and I go along with 5-4 suited. The flop comes up J-9-5 rainbow. Checks around to me (I am last to act) so I bet $6. Three folds leaves three players in hand. Pot now around $35. Turn is an ace. Checks to me again, so I let it ride. River is a 4. Gives me 2 pair. No flush possibilities, limited straight chances. It checks to me, so I bet $25. First player immediately re-raises to $75. Second player folds. What do I do? And did I screw up by betting the $25 in the first place?
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

Stacks & Stacks
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Total posts
8,250
Awards
1
Chips
124
1) Why the bet on the flop? You aren't going to get enough folds to make it profitable. If you do bet then overbet the pot to see if you can take it down right there. There are just too many bad turns for you to make a pot-builder size bet of $6 into a $21 pot with bottom pair.

2) Since you did bet the flop then fire again on that Ace turn and rep A5.

3) Check back the river, you have bottom 2P!! You built the pot with your small flop bet, check back and see if you did indeed get lucky.

4) As played, sigh fold. 1 pair hands are not going to check/raise you and what 2P hands do you beat??
 
teepack

teepack

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
2,317
Awards
1
Chips
14
Yes, I agree I screwed this one up twice. I should not have bet the river and just let it go to see if I got lucky, then I sure as heck should not have called his re-raise.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
If we are going to play this hand, why not come in for a raise? Make it like $15-$20. Limping and playing bingo is not a good strategy. Try to select a raise size that will get a max of 2 callers (based on table dynamics).

However, we can easily just fold this hand pre. It's not a good hand. We can get lucky with it, and it is kinda sexy, but you gotta raise pre (if you're gonna play it). It makes it easier to win the pot postflop. We took control, and there's less Vs.


I assume we are in LP? You didn't really say...


Hate the flop bet. Never ever gonna work. As played though, ace is a great turn card to barrel. We don't want to bloat pots with bottom pair. Too many Vs.


On the river, unless this guy is just bluffing (not likely), we have to fold. We can't beat much.
 
teepack

teepack

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
2,317
Awards
1
Chips
14
The dynamics of this table was a lot of limping. So even if I had raised to $15 pre-flop, the same five guys would have called. I would have to say that was the biggest shock to me was how many players would just call almost any raise to see the flop. The same people who were going to limp for $3 would limp for $15.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Just fold pre, making 5 high flushes live is going to get you crushed by flush over flush. People can't fold a suited hand live, especially in limped pots.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Limping is fine in LP IMO if we know we aren't getting repopped a lot of the time
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Limping is fine in LP IMO if we know we aren't getting repopped a lot of the time


I don't know man. You open the door to flush vs flush coolers letting people in there with J-6 "sooted" and the like.


The reason we raise this is to thin the field, and get out suited trash.


But we could just as easily fold this rubbish and wait for better spots.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Limping is fine in LP IMO if we know we aren't getting repopped a lot of the time

No it's not. We have 54 sooooooted. It's not a good hand to limp along with here. You are basically playing ATC if you are limping this.

Especially if the table is how OP described "a bunch of regs"
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I guess we play different styles IPlay. I see no reason not to try to put $2 in the machine with a completely fine SC. Like how do you conclude that from 54s we are limping Q3o??? They are totally different hands with totally different sets of implied odds. My LP limping range or for that reason button limping range is rather wide. If we think are worse than the players at the table, okay tighten it up, but the worse the players are just get me in there with some napkins and let's make some magic work. Reasonable napkins. I'm limping 54s all day. Limping 107s all day, J7s, J9o things like this.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
How are we that afraid of flush over flush? Like that's soooo unlikely right? I don't think I can be convinced that limping 54s on the button is a bad play. Are we literally never playing this hand then? It also helps us balance a little bit, at least superficially since we can have hands that aren't just nutted and high cards (although obv we would raise those but maybe people will always just put our range higher)
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
How are we that afraid of flush over flush? Like that's soooo unlikely right? I don't think I can be convinced that limping 54s on the button is a bad play. Are we literally never playing this hand then? It also helps us balance a little bit, at least superficially since we can have hands that aren't just nutted and high cards (although obv we would raise those but maybe people will always just put our range higher)


It's low limit live poker. We don't need to "balance". We just make value hands, and bet them relentlessly.


If we play this hand, we raise pre. We have control, we can cbet take it down a bunch, we get other garbage out that can (and may, even if unlikely) cooler us.


If we limp, we are just like the rest of the folks playing bingo. We have 5-high, we aren't taking the initiative, and it's pretty bad.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
I guess we play different styles IPlay.

Yes we do play different styles, I am more tight aggressive and you seem to be more loose passive.

I see no reason not to try to put $2 in the machine with a completely fine SC.

The reason we don't "put $2 in the machine" is because we are playing poker, not slots. If this is a perfectly fine SC then are we limping 43s/32s too?

Like how do you conclude that from 54s we are limping Q3o??? They are totally different hands with totally different sets of implied odds.

These hands do have different sets of implied odds, mainly being the reverse implied odds that 54s gives us in a 5 way limped pot. Atleast Q3o will make us top pair a good chunk of the time while we are hoping to... idk... flop a draw with 54s which is going to make us put more money in post flop with 5 high.(Not that I limp either of these hands here)

My LP limping range or for that reason button limping range is rather wide. If we think are worse than the players at the table, okay tighten it up, but the worse the players are just get me in there with some napkins and let's make some magic work. Reasonable napkins. I'm limping 54s all day. Limping 107s all day, J7s, J9o things like this.

Yeah, limping 80% of hands is rather wide. It also does not really matter how bad the players are when we see a limped flop 5 way because we are going to have to make a hand to win the majority of the time and even live fish can fold top pair when the obvious flush comes in, they actually get off on folding to 3 flush boards. If you are better then the other players, raise and isolate them and out play them post. Don't limp along and develop bad habits with them.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Nah I'm definitely not loose passive I disagree with that one
 
quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
I agree with others this hand didn't need to be in there at all. Last night I started getting bored and limping around in hands at my local room i had no place limping around in and it cost me.

Ideally as others said, check back the river and maybe you surprise yourself with nice small pot. However, you bet $25, other guy fires back $75, I call here. Why? Because what else is villain re-raising you with? No flushes out there, probably not a straight, did he really limp in with 2-3? He certainly didn't have a set because most players want their sets to pay, not get drawn out on. I'm going to venture to guess villain had some sort of Jx or Ax, maybe AJ and you lose but who knows. I wouldn;t generally be in this hand in the first place but you got stuck and have 2 pair on a relatively safe board, I call the raise and see if he's just a guy with his A or J paired up alone.
 
teepack

teepack

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Total posts
2,317
Awards
1
Chips
14
Great feedback and discussion. I understand about not limping with 5-4 and I normally don't play that hand, but three players had already limped to me, so I went along figuring neither of the blinds would raise (which they didn't). I was already up $200 or so, so I figured it was worth it to take a shot, and if either of the blinds had popped it up to $10 or so, I would have folded.

When it checked to me on the flop (I was last to act), I bet to thin the field, and three of the other five folded. When the ace showed up on the turn and it checked to me again, I decided to let it ride thinking my bottom pair was no good. Yes, I could have tried to represent the ace, but it would not have done any good (mainly because UTG+1 actually had the ace and he would not have folded under any circumstance). When it checked to me again on the river after I had rivered two pair, I thought I was good, which is why I bet. I don't think the call, flop bet or river bet were necessarily mistakes. I just wish I hadn't called his re-raise. But I really didn't think this guy was a good player (he wound up busting out a little while later), which was probably the major factor for my decision to call.
 
Delvuter

Delvuter

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
307
Chips
0
2 pair is worse only to 1 pair and high card. As you said there are limited flush and straight possibilities, but there are higher 2 pair and set possibilities and in a multiway pot those possibilities become a real threat. With all those callers the chances Ax gave someone a higher 2 pair becomes not only a threat, but probable and we want to get to showdown cheap. If anyone shows any aggression we have to fold. So betting on the river was exactly someone was hoping for and you need to cut your losses and fold. You are beat by a set or higher 2 pair. Only thing re-raising there is something that beats you and complete air and complete air only happens about 10% of the time there.
 
Delvuter

Delvuter

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Total posts
307
Chips
0
Just read all the posts. 54s is a call pre IP after a bunch of limpers all day long with deep stacks. We do not want to raise pre, we give up implied odds once we raise. 45s is getting kinda lowish for suited connectors, but we are IP. If the flop is high broadway that gives us our flush draw we are in good shape because high broadway would have raised pre so we know it missed their range. And if its low cards giving us our straight draw that's awesome. Totally a limp in hand IP, perfect implied scenario.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Yup this is a perfect limp scenario y'all are off yer damn rockers. I don't know if a thread has ever tilted me this much, but good lord limping here is a good play and if we can't realize that gah idk how to convince you guys.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Yup this is a perfect limp scenario y'all are off yer damn rockers. I don't know if a thread has ever tilted me this much, but good lord limping here is a good play and if we can't realize that gah idk how to convince you guys.


Please continue to limp 5-high and play bingo like the rest of the droolers, both of you...
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I would just be open to new ways of learning and stop being so condescending a closed-minded. I have a well-established win-rate at 1/2, I think my strategies have gotten me there.

I don't know why I feel like I have to defend myself on this stupid forum this is so dumb.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Just because a strategy doesn't fit into your standard box does not mean it is incorrect and definitely does not mean it's worth calling people "droolers".

Experiment. Learn from evidence not from books written so long ago?

If I write a post and it says I 4bet 86o I'm a total fish drooler what have you but if Tom Dwan 4bets 86o it's okay right?

So standard all the time, no critical analysis, good lord man, I really can't do these hand analyses anymore
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Just because a strategy doesn't fit into your standard box does not mean it is incorrect and definitely does not mean it's worth calling people "droolers".

Experiment. Learn from evidence not from books written so long ago?

If I write a post and it says I 4bet 86o I'm a total fish drooler what have you but if Tom Dwan 4bets 86o it's okay right?

So standard all the time, no critical analysis, good lord man, I really can't do these hand analyses anymore


You have 5 high. You can't win the pot by fold equity, you aren't setting up future cbets. Not to mention, most flops you just limp, and then fold, thus lighting $2 on fire (or whatever BB is).

How often are you going to smash a flop with 5-4? I dunno 90%+ you're folding flop or some later street.

Not to mention the times you flop a draw, and what do you do with said draw? If you had taken the initiative, maybe you win the pot with no showdown.


We won't flop a big hand often enough. We are playing bingo. And what about the times you do flop a pair? Is it good? Probably not.

Agression wins pots alot. Taking the passive route is referred to as "loose passive".


Definition of loose passive: A player who is loose with hand selection (5-4s), and passive with betting. $2 adds up.


And why would you compare yourself with Tom Dwan? You think Tom Dwan would limp into a multi-way pot with this hand? For some reason I think he'd raise, if he were to play it... but what do I know?

And we aren't talking about 4b with 6-8o, we are talking about limping in with 5-4s. Not the same thing. So the comparison seems irrelevant.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Just because a strategy doesn't fit into your standard box does not mean it is incorrect and definitely does not mean it's worth calling people "droolers".

Experiment. Learn from evidence not from books written so long ago?

If I write a post and it says I 4bet 86o I'm a total fish drooler what have you but if Tom Dwan 4bets 86o it's okay right?

So standard all the time, no critical analysis, good lord man, I really can't do these hand analyses anymore


Furthermore...

If I came off like a jerk, I'm sorry about that. I just don't agree. I know I come off jerky though sometimes.
 
Top