$400 NLHE Full Ring: flopped top boat/fold the turn raise

G

Gildog89

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Total posts
237
Awards
1
Chips
24
So I wasn't involved in the hand, but this went down at the table I was at yesterday and sparked debate at the table. Its a live $2/$4 table, effective stacks about $1200. Both players are very good regulars, who play a balanced game and are generally pretty deep a few hours into sessions in the room.


Player 1 in MP opens to $20
Player 2 on button 3 bets to $70
Blinds fold
Player 1 Calls


Flop comes As Td Th


Player 1 checks
Player 2 bets $75
Player 1 flats $75


Turn comes 7s


Player 1 checks
Player 2 bets $225
Player 1 raises to $600
Player 2 goes into the tank and folds AdAh face up.


My question is, how many are folding here? Player 2 told me TT was a lot more likely than AT, which is why he folded. I get that he held 2 ace blockers, but wow! Not sure I could have found that fold. As I think it through, only one combination of AcTc and one combination of TsTc are left. So is one really more likely than the other? Curious on peoples thoughts here. Good or bad fold?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
So I wasn't involved in the hand, but this went down at the table I was at yesterday and sparked debate at the table. Its a live $2/$4 table, effective stacks about $1200. Both players are very good regulars, who play a balanced game and are generally pretty deep a few hours into sessions in the room.


Player 1 in MP opens to $20
Player 2 on button 3 bets to $70
Blinds fold
Player 1 Calls


Flop comes As Td Th


Player 1 checks
Player 2 bets $75
Player 1 flats $75


Turn comes 7s


Player 1 checks
Player 2 bets $225
Player 1 raises to $600
Player 2 goes into the tank and folds AdAh face up.


My question is, how many are folding here? Player 2 told me TT was a lot more likely than AT, which is why he folded. I get that he held 2 ace blockers, but wow! Not sure I could have found that fold. As I think it through, only one combination of AcTc and one combination of TsTc are left. So is one really more likely than the other? Curious on peoples thoughts here. Good or bad fold?

Not folding. Ever. If he coolers me it's whatever.

Guy could def just have 10x and think he's good, he could have even peeled dry flop with 7-7 and he thinks he's good.

If the dude has 10-10 its whatever.

He might not even raise 10-10, as he wouldn't want to blow the dude off the hand here most likely.

But, it would be sick if he had 10-10.
 
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
(Almost) never folding there.

Seems just as possible that he has A10 or 77 which makes it profitable. Even with A10 and 10-10 being the only possible hands, that's 50% equity. Would need an absolute hard read on villain to fold.
 
gabpoker

gabpoker

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Total posts
625
Awards
5
Chips
8
Crazy fold. Never folding here, if I get stacked by quads oh well.
 
Last edited:
DougPkrMonsta

DougPkrMonsta

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 7, 2016
Total posts
914
Awards
15
Chips
0
More likely to call the 3-bet with TT than ATo is their point I guess?

How long did the table laugh at the player who folded top boat face up to a small raise?

Very good regulars at $400 live games don't really exist. :D
 
T

TDTODDY

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Total posts
374
Chips
0
I did something similar in a tourny, when the other guy shoved. I have regretted that hand every day since.
 
M

mikeisthebestever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Total posts
162
Chips
0
What actually happened here is player 1 is a nit, and player 2 picked up on it. It is more likely he flopped quads because its the only hand he would have for value in a 3 bet pot. That being said, without knowing your opponent is a nit, its a VERY bad fold long term against looser average players.
 
Q

quant1986

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Total posts
599
Awards
1
Chips
2
Not likely to fold here as I expect villain would open and call 3bet with AcTc, 77 and TT in MP but I do understand player 2 could have impeccable read to support his decision.
 
WhereDidMyEVGo

WhereDidMyEVGo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Total posts
547
Chips
0
I might fold here...if my opponent showed me 1010.
 
3betfish

3betfish

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Total posts
344
Chips
0
Never folding here. Would be sick if he had a correct read on quads. But more often then not, villain has a smaller boat or simply a set of 10s. If p1 has TT, classic cooler situation.

We have no information on p1 except they're a "good regular". With quads, I feel a standard line is to call the turn, and check OR bet the river. Mostly be if he thinks p2 has a flush or better.

Also, if P1 didnt have TT, he can start exploiting P2 in spots like this after folding face up aces
 
G

Gildog89

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Total posts
237
Awards
1
Chips
24
I was on the side of bad fold too, and NEVER face up!

There was a "high hand" promotion in the room that day, so the guy turned over his 10 10. The table went into what a great fold conversation, while I thought to myself that I would just lose my stack and be ok with it. The more I think about it though, I think the guy had a specific read, or there is no way he folds face up. He had to know with like 99% certainty in order to fold face up, and also know because of the promotion that the other guy would have to show his cards.

As a side note, the guy who folded caught a straight flush a few hands later and collected the high hand in the room that hour. Talk about getting in someone's head.
 
3betfish

3betfish

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Total posts
344
Chips
0
I was on the side of bad fold too, and NEVER face up!

There was a "high hand" promotion in the room that day, so the guy turned over his 10 10. The table went into what a great fold conversation, while I thought to myself that I would just lose my stack and be ok with it. The more I think about it though, I think the guy had a specific read, or there is no way he folds face up. He had to know with like 99% certainty in order to fold face up, and also know because of the promotion that the other guy would have to show his cards.

As a side note, the guy who folded caught a straight flush a few hands later and collected the high hand in the room that hour. Talk about getting in someone's head.


  • wow, he really had TT? the villain who folded is a freaking wizard
  • since theyre both regulars, wouldn't be surprised if there was a SICK read.
  • did they get the high hand promo for showing hand, without going to S/d?
  • i too would have lost my entire stack
 
G

Gildog89

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Total posts
237
Awards
1
Chips
24
Yes, high hand qualifies without show down as long as pot has at least $20. Just have to show cards. These promotions tend to bring loose, passive play, so I usually like playing during them.
 
3betfish

3betfish

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Total posts
344
Chips
0
Yes, high hand qualifies without show down as long as pot has at least $20. Just have to show cards. These promotions tend to bring loose, passive play, so I usually like playing during them.


It also destroys preflop fundamentals. “I want to play 2-3 suited from the small blind to get high hand.” Or calling with 22 versus 50x raise for bad beatjackpot LMFAO
 
G

Gildog89

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 15, 2018
Total posts
237
Awards
1
Chips
24
It also destroys preflop fundamentals. “I want to play 2-3 suited from the small blind to get high hand.” Or calling with 22 versus 50x raise for bad beatjackpot LMFAO
Right. Then I get free draws to my nut flush vs. flopped sets trying to hit their 1 outer!
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I had to chuckle at the fact that the word "balanced" was used to describe both opponents before launching into this hand where one player x/r with quads, and the other b/f top boat...

Now, before I go on a rant: yes, sometimes you have enough history with someone and have a REALLY good handle on what their range is preflop allowing you to make some big exploitative plays on later streets, and YES live reads do exist, BUT...

In general, even in tough-ish live lineups at low to mid stakes (meaning, it's still soft), the better players in the game are not just raising and folding TONS of their range to 3bets. MP is most likely opening a LOT of suited Tx that doesn't go away preflop. Stuff like T9s, JTs, QTs, KTs may not fold, but aren't 4betting probably either. If that player takes ALL those hands to the flop, there's no reason we should think he doesn't play them exactly this way, putting his opponent on a LOT of AK and AQ.

I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks Player 1 has pocket 7's here ever, but whatever. There's SO much trips available (in comparison to the single combo of quads) that you just can't fold.

The only things that could lead you to fold are:
- Player 1 only continues with PP's and AJ+ preflop, or
- Player 1 would always check raise bare trips on this (RAINBOW) flop, or
- Player 1 would never check raise bare trips on this turn

Now, this all also assumes that Player 1 never has bluffs in this spot, which I DO actually think is reasonable. Despite the assertion of balance, it's just so unlikely. But the rest of these are pretty big assumptions that have to be in place. Again, not impossible he had all this info but very unlikely it's certain enough to justify folding. Especially because now we are folding every single hand in our range except for the absolute nuts as Player 2, and the absolute nuts probably never faces this action due to no Tx being available lol.
 
Folding in Poker
Top