$400 NLHE Full Ring: facing donkish shove from bb

Live $2/$5.

Two hands into session, no reads. Villain outta shape old guy wearing raggy lookin clothes, if that's a read. Heros thinkin fish.

Dealt JJ. Utg limps..folds around..hero makes it 20...villain shoves 450. Utg folds.

Lol live spot.

1) do you call?

2) what range would you call with as hero?

fold, call KK+

baudib1 said:

fold, call KK+

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+1

I hate this nonsense so much and get it all the time live. You just wish you're like 2 orbits into the table so you know for sure whether he's spazzing or not.
IMO though this is easy callable if you're rolled. I don't like making it live cos you don't play enough to balance variance, but really, would he do that w/ AA KK QQ or would he go for value? I think it's much more likely AK or a mid pair.
1st post saying KK+ I like though. Grumble, muck it and go for a smoke lol

fold. call KK+

Also, raise to at least $25 pre. UTG will almost always limp/call $20. And will almost always limp/call $25. Get more value. I like monies. haha

Lol ok.

Yeah sancto, I make it 20 togo anytime I'm in a pot...w ATC. Tends to loosen up the table a lot. If I played tighter I agree id make it 25 more.

Kk+...jeez, giving unknown credit I guess

(That said, if the hand played out normally @ all, leading to a shove I totally agree kk+. Just the way it did makes me go wtfff...ddont know if caalling is ev+ longterm

Poker_play said:

Lol ok.

Yeah sancto, I make it 20 togo anytime I'm in a pot...w ATC. Tends to loosen up the table a lot. If I played tighter I agree id make it 25 more.

Kk+...jeez, giving unknown credit I guess

(That said, if the hand played out normally @ all, leading to a shove I totally agree kk+. Just the way it did makes me go wtfff...ddont know if caalling is ev+ longterm

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I guess it's ok to make it $20 to go with your entire raising range. Problem is, you are going to get into funky SPR spots with your TPTK and overpair hands.

Plus, you are losing value with your strong hands. Most people at 2/5 won't put too much thought if you vary your raise amounts. But what will happen, is it will put you in a spot to make better/easier decisions post-flop and beyond.

In fact, I might make it $30 in this spot. If you open raised, I agree playing a smaller pot might be better because it's tough to open-raise to $30+ at 2/5 and get callers. But since we have an EP limper, we know he is coming along for a decent sized raise. So let's get our SPR near a ratio we like. So, based on that, I think $30 might be better.

Here's an example: Which would you rather have, assume 100 bb effective stacks:

1) 5 limpers. You are on the BTN with KK. You make it $20. All limpers call and pot is $120.

2) 5 limpers. You are on the BTN with KK. You make it $45 to go. 1 caller. Pot is $110.

Option 2 is better because your SPR is MUCH better because you are heads-up even tho the actual SPRs are almost identical. When you play multi-way, your target SPRs are actually lower. So the farther they are from the target, the tougher it is for you.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that I'd rather try to hit a target SPR and thin the field with my big pairs than try to get into a big multiway pot. After any flop, big pairs are still that, big over pairs. And if my SPR is close to my target, it's easier to to commit confortably. When it's far from my target, it's possible for villain to put me in a tough spot.

Depends how important the $400 was to you in my opinion. I would be willing to bet your JJ was good but I wouldnt be comfortable without KK or AA like everyone else. If he had you beat he probably would have just raised instead of push to keep you in. Seems to me he was scared of you having a hand so maybe he had two overs or mid pp. If affordable, call. If not, get info on him and see if he makes the same mistake when you have a bigger hand.

xUnrated said:

Depends how important the $400 was to you in my opinion. I would be willing to bet your JJ was good but I wouldnt be comfortable without KK or AA like everyone else. If he had you beat he probably would have just raised instead of push to keep you in. Seems to me he was scared of you having a hand so maybe he had two overs or mid pp. If affordable, call. If not, get info on him and see if he makes the same mistake when you have a bigger hand.

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Your logic does make sense. In fact, it's probably correct more often at 300NL and below.

But I think the reason why we call with KK+ is because we don't really crush his range with JJ like we do with KK+. So it's really just a marginal spot. But if villain is a donk, there are gonna be MUCH better spots in the session where villain will commit his stack where we have a much bigger edge.

I think it's not really whether or not the money matters. Against a donk, we really don't need to squeeze out thin value which is kinda like what this situation is. Versus donks there are plenty of "fat value" situations.

Sancto, I like a lot of what you're sayin, but..

You suggesting I raise 45 with kk+, but regular 20sh with other hands? 2/5 players generally aren't the most observant/best readers, but they'll catch on that lol and adjust accordingly. I might get a fish limp with suited connectors or some crap, but when they miss flop, they're out. That's gonna hurt my value longterm imo.

Id much rather give up a lil value preflop, and maybe have to deal with 1 or 2 extra callers..as long as my hand is transparent. Ill take kk vs 2 callers on most boards if they don't believe I have a hand. I actually make a conscious effort to raise a couple of times consecutively so they don't respect my raises. Give them a reason to make mistakes and they will. When one hits top pair or mid pair with some draw...welcome to valuetown lol. Overpair won't cross their mind till the river valuebet in a lot of cases.

Not arguing that isolating and raising big wouldn't work..prolly would. I jus find standard raise that no one respects works for me. (Mostly because a lot of players are lol postflop)

I've rarely seen old guys be anything other than nits when it comes to putting huge amounts of money in, I'd say this holds true about 98% of the time. The fact that he has "raggy clothes" makes me feel like he really cares about the money a lot. You're new at the table, he could have been there for hours, waiting for Aces and for some punk to try to push him around so he can teach them a thing or two.

without reads most likely range for villain is, KK, QQ, AK, AQs , EV- spot
I really dont see anything else in his range unless hes a spaz , but we need proof ,
another scenario where I would consider calling this would be when a player is making a play at you but thats only with history between the two of you .
why risk 80BB on a marginal spot at best, wait for a better spot the game is not going anywhere. I would also make the raise bigger pre as default but I vary my pre flop raises reguraly, I dont like to keep them constant because say $20 raises at these stakes get called too light , I would prefer to make it $35 70% of the time and $20 the standard 30% of the time .