$400 NLHE Full Ring: AQ top pair vs river shove

P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
Hero has $1400 in BB, Villain is Dealer..$4K +
Folds around. Villain makes it $20..Hero Raises to $50 with AsQs. Villain calls.
Flop 3d 2d 2h.
Hero checks..Villain bets $80..Hero makes it $180. Villain asks how much behind..gets a count..and calls.
Turn Qh. Hero bets $350..Villain snaps.
River 3c. Hero checks..Villain shoves. Hero?
INFO: Villain is some type of pro. Decked out in poker gear from head to toe..young guy...has $4k in active chips and at least $10K in big chips and $100 bills just chillin on the table.
I had only been on table for like 2 orbits...the hand right before this, I had $650..dealt KK..villain and I fired back and forth preflop, ended up allin, he fipped over AA...river...K!
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Kind of hard for him to have many real value hands that shove the river imo. With the previous hand history, I call.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

Stacks & Stacks
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Total posts
8,250
Awards
1
Chips
124
Agree this is a pretty easy call.
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
So you're reading bluff, right? Aq can't beat any hands that shoove for value on river imo...any kq qj or mid pp should check back at that point

Hero calls btw..and whole table goes wtf? U put in 1400 with just top pair? Goes to show the difference between live and online play. U guys both call out easy call lol. (Result later)
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
Every single time i make hero calls like this at a live table, villian tables the ace rag that i was afaid of. In game i prob call. Looking at it here, i fold.
 
Demonomania

Demonomania

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Total posts
324
Chips
0
Seems like he shoved on a missed draw.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
So you're reading bluff, right? Aq can't beat any hands that shoove for value on river imo...any kq qj or mid pp should check back at that point

Hero calls btw..and whole table goes wtf? U put in 1400 with just top pair? Goes to show the difference between live and online play. U guys both call out easy call lol. (Result later)
Well I mean he should only shove for value with 22,33,A2,A3,QQ so 7 combos total if he plays A2/A3 preflop.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
I'm not sure how this is a call being like 3 stacks deep. I'd expect to be shown 2x or quads pretty often. But like WV says, that puts him on a crazy narrow range.

But I also prolly wouldn't semibluff without draws to near nut hands playing 300 deep.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
I'm not sure how this is a call being like 3 stacks deep. I'd expect to be shown 2x or quads pretty often. But like WV says, that puts him on a crazy narrow range.

But I also prolly wouldn't semibluff without draws to near nut hands playing 300 deep.
Ths was something I meant to ask about earlier. Why are we electing to ch/r the flop here?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Ths was something I meant to ask about earlier. Why are we electing to ch/r the flop here?

Cuz hero is a live player, and everyone else is spewing, so this seems normal.
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
I like Ch/R more then Cbet in some spots..like here against alot of his range. People recognize ch/r as strength, it tends to get more respect live. Cbet everyone just assumes is coming. IE..a pp (7 or 8s) is almost never folding to a cbet here. A ch/raise..they either fold right there or really believe they're behind after that (and I can push them off on later streets).
Yeah a little spewy though
 
C

CaptainKout

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Total posts
328
Chips
0
What about Aces or Kings? He might have called the preflop checkraise to get more out of you later especially if he's seen you spew cbet/checkraises before. Same mindset on calling your checkraise/cbet thing. He's got a narrow range but you do too. He's probably got you on a middle pair or the AQ you've got. The queen is a scary card for a middle pair so he might expect you to lead at it. If he's really good then he might feel comfortable stacking off on this river with an overpair. I would discount heavily any 2's or 3's in his range, card removal plus calling a big checkraise pre. Bluffs are still their but its a huge shove so I'd but this in the middle even tho there are a lot of bluff combinations. He might have like jacks or 10's and be taking your river check to mean you don't have a queen. I probably call and tilt/leave for the bar after this hand. Could also have same hand as you but I don't think AQ calls your flop checkraise.

Villain holdings(most to least likely in my humble opinion)
a)Overpair(QQQ-AA)
b)bluff or middle pair turned bluff
c)A2s
d)A3s
e)22 or 33
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
I also want to note just how horrible 3-betting AQ is 300 bb's deep. AQ is kinda a RIO hand in a normal 3-bet pot. Now take the SPR and multiply it by 3! The way you played this hand just shows no understanding of how to play deep, and seems crazy spewy to me.

Likely you called and won, and your opponent's horrible bluff bailed you out of a worse call. But this hand was played really badly on every street (except maybe the turn).
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
You are that deep and you raise pre-flop to $50?

I fold just about every time in that spot live on the river. He knows that it looks like a bluff.

Golden rule of poker: If an opponent can bet less with a bluff and achieve the same results, then it's likely for value when he bets more.
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
CaptainKout..I doubt AA or KK, because he shouldn't have that read on me yet...have never played with the guy before, just 2 orbits, haven't done any of the sort yet. Last AA vs KK we both fired aggressively pre.
C9--how do you play the streets?
c9/John...AQs is well ahead of villain range for small raise on button. Maybe not all $2/5 tbls run like this..but @ my casino (and def on this table) this could be 78s to qjo to a9s to any pp. Almost no one just throws in $5..(besides really old ppl?). Especially from late position. I like more info before I go into the hand. Easy fold to a 4bet...I get him away from alot of the garbage hands..and I get alittle more info. Don't see why that's terrible play.
I figured no one'll like the flop c/r...whats the proper play..cbet? or c/fold?. I find c/r more effective then cbet in that spot, might be wrong though. I hate cbet, getting called, and having to debate second and third barrel..c/r usually gets the job done (especially on this board where he probably has air or mid pp, nothing to feel good about when they run into a c/r). Here obv irrelevant cause I spike the turn.
River..whats the proper move? "Value" bet so-so hand for a few hundred/commit to call shove? I'd rather make the decision with my chips still in my stack. Check/Check woulda been fine w/me there.
John, I agree w/your rule on bluffing. Pot size around $1200 though..Hero's got around $800 behind..not an unreasonable overbet bluff here. He has no reason to think anything less than the $350 I bet on the turn would get me off..
 
C

CaptainKout

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Total posts
328
Chips
0
How long till you spill the beans?
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
CaptainKout..I doubt AA or KK, because he shouldn't have that read on me yet...have never played with the guy before, just 2 orbits, haven't done any of the sort yet. Last AA vs KK we both fired aggressively pre.
C9--how do you play the streets?
c9/John...AQs is well ahead of villain range for small raise on button. Maybe not all $2/5 tbls run like this..but @ my casino (and def on this table) this could be 78s to qjo to a9s to any pp. Almost no one just throws in $5..(besides really old ppl?). Especially from late position. I like more info before I go into the hand. Easy fold to a 4bet...I get him away from alot of the garbage hands..and I get alittle more info. Don't see why that's terrible play.
I figured no one'll like the flop c/r...whats the proper play..cbet? or c/fold?. I find c/r more effective then cbet in that spot, might be wrong though. I hate cbet, getting called, and having to debate second and third barrel..c/r usually gets the job done (especially on this board where he probably has air or mid pp, nothing to feel good about when they run into a c/r). Here obv irrelevant cause I spike the turn.
River..whats the proper move? "Value" bet so-so hand for a few hundred/commit to call shove? I'd rather make the decision with my chips still in my stack. Check/Check woulda been fine w/me there.
John, I agree w/your rule on bluffing. Pot size around $1200 though..Hero's got around $800 behind..not an unreasonable overbet bluff here. He has no reason to think anything less than the $350 I bet on the turn would get me off..

I'm implying, raise more pre-flop and cut down his SPR. Make him play a bigger pot OOP against you.

I didn't add up all the bets when I first looked at by the river. 8 into a 12 is a pretty easy call then. Sure he'll show up with a 3 sometimes, but I think the biggest mistake made was pre-flop.
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
Gotcha...80 or 100 woulda been better?

Villain flips over KdJd. Freaks out '****in fish how do u call that!' I ended up doin a good ## on him that night..he was tiltin like hell in every hand we were in after lol.

I realize errs on both parts...but def biggest bluffcall to date for me on cash gm..felt good!
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
AQs is well ahead of villain's range for small raise on button.
This is only one thing to consider, and one of the least important things to think about when you are 300 big blinds deep.

Preflop equity is almost meaningless when you're this deep. When you 3-bet to $50, the stack to pot ratio is 14:1. So even in a pot that started with a 5x open and a 3-bet, your opponent is getting enough implied odds to set mine, draw at flushes and straights, ect. So getting committed with top pair is a hell of a bad idea.

3-betting larger is okay too, but I'd typically want a stronger hand than AQs.

So realize that when you 3-bet, you're also selecting the size pot that you want to play. And 300 deep, your 3-bet doesn't affect your opponent's implied odds (because he always has them). So I'd flat his raise, planning to play a small pot with top pairs. And whenever I flopped a gutshot or a lot of backdoor nut draws, then I'd look to semibluff check/raise flops like this.

Deep stacked poker is very different. Stick to playing 100 bb's deep if you can help it.
 
P

Poker_play

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Total posts
249
Chips
0
C9--I buy in for 100BB..on good days I'm usually between 2-300 BB for most of the session. I don't think avoiding it will do me much good; if there's more to learn, I gotta learn it.
I don't intend to flop top pair and stack off lol...only did in this particular hand because I couldn't put him on a value hand. On another Qxx flop..no, I'm not stackin off 1400 just because I hit top pair, so i'm not sure these implied odds are entirely accurate.
I gotcha though..I'll lean towards making sure I 3b bigger in these deepstack situations to make calling less favorable. I see your logic but I don't like flatting and having zero information on my opponents hand.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
This is only one thing to consider, and one of the least important things to think about when you are 300 big blinds deep.

Preflop equity is almost meaningless when you're this deep. When you 3-bet to $50, the stack to pot ratio is 14:1. So even in a pot that started with a 5x open and a 3-bet, your opponent is getting enough implied odds to set mine, draw at flushes and straights, ect. So getting committed with top pair is a hell of a bad idea.

3-betting larger is okay too, but I'd typically want a stronger hand than AQs.

So realize that when you 3-bet, you're also selecting the size pot that you want to play. And 300 deep, your 3-bet doesn't affect your opponent's implied odds (because he always has them). So I'd flat his raise, planning to play a small pot with top pairs. And whenever I flopped a gutshot or a lot of backdoor nut draws, then I'd look to semibluff check/raise flops like this.

Deep stacked poker is very different. Stick to playing 100 bb's deep if you can help it.

OOP agree with your post. In position though, I think you should be pumping it simply because (and especially at live play), you're going to get nuckleheads calling you with KJ, QK, 74, etc... as long as you're not looking to always just stack off with TPTK. You just have to learn how to check some dry flops when you hit your ace or Q (which you'll be able to do in position).
 
Top