$400 NLHE Full Ring: all in preflop with KK losing all stake - what could I have done better?

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Falcon1803

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$400 NLHE Full Ring: all in preflop with KK losing all stake - what could I have done better?

I was playing live at a local casino. There were 10 players at the table and it was pretty loose - most UTG bets got 2-5 callers and 3-bets got callers almost always. I was MP with KK with deep stack of 250BB (1000 euro). UTG was a fish who folded to 3 bet quite often. BB was a regular (with 1000 euro stack) whom I had seen 3 betting AQ and other non-premium hands, sometimes limping with KK+ from UTG.
Pot 6 EURO, UTG bet 20 EURO, I 3-bet 60 EURO, button calls, others fold, BB 4-bets 180 Euro, I 5-bet all in to face pocket AA... (UTG and Button fold)
I realise that KK was not the right hand to go all in with such a deep stack but BB didn't seem tight... Also I did'n want to be called by many players as it was often the case at this table... Morever the flop came 888 and I would have no information on him playing postflop even if I had just called him preflop...
Turn was A so only there I would have a chance to fold if I'd had any stack left by that time...
 
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bgomez89

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Even from loose players, I dont think anyone is really going to call off 250bbs unless they have a REALLY strong hand. IMO you're seeing QQ+ like 99% when he calls.

I think i'd probably just call the 4bet and let him spew or 5bet smaller. Im really bad at playing deep tho
 
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baudib1

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When the action goes 20 UTG, 60, cold 4-bet to 180, 1000...regs are folding QQ.
 
BLACKSTACK

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Its just one of those hands that you cant walk away from and with that flopthe only hand that could beat you at that point was another 8 or AA.
 
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When the action goes 20 UTG, 60, cold 4-bet to 180, 1000...regs are folding QQ.
I could have also folded QQ if it wasn't me who went all in. In the case of QQ by far more hands could beat me, even AK that holds major part of the vilains 4 bet range has a decent chance of beating QQ. But KK is different as it significantly decreases the chances of AK to improve. So there was only 1 hand that could 4-bet preflop and beat me - AA. The question is whether I was right to go all in and what was a better line I could have taken?
 
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If you agree that QQ is pretty much a no-brainer fold then how do you expect a reg to call when you jam 4 times the pot?

I'm pretty sure this is a fold to the 4-bet but everyone will start jumping up and down and screaming about never folding KK etc. But overbet jamming is definitely going to be our worst possible option here. Flatting or min 5-betting are going to be infinitely better.
 
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Falcon1803

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If you agree that QQ is pretty much a no-brainer fold then how do you expect a reg to call when you jam 4 times the pot?

I'm pretty sure this is a fold to the 4-bet but everyone will start jumping up and down and screaming about never folding KK etc. But overbet jamming is definitely going to be our worst possible option here. Flatting or min 5-betting are going to be infinitely better.
I agree... but I'm affraid on 888 flop I would have lost this money all the same... The reason why I shoved was that I had seen him 3 betting worse hands, so I wouldn't have been suprised if he had turned out with AK or QQ.
 
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baudib1

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I agree... but I'm affraid on 888 flop I would have lost this money all the same... The reason why I shoved was that I had seen him 3 betting worse hands, so I wouldn't have been suprised if he had turned out with AK or QQ.

1. The flop is irrelevant
2. 3-betting is a lot different than cold 4-betting vs. UTG and an EP 3-bet (i.e. both of you will have AA a lot)
3. If he is cold 4-betting AK/QQ then you let him fold those pretty easily and managed to ISO yourself vs. the only hand that will call you.
 
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1. The flop is irrelevant
2. 3-betting is a lot different than cold 4-betting vs. UTG and an EP 3-bet (i.e. both of you will have AA a lot)
3. If he is cold 4-betting AK/QQ then you let him fold those pretty easily and managed to ISO yourself vs. the only hand that will call you.
Didn't quite understand statement 3. You mean that if he 4-bets AK, QQ it would be better to call and to stack him postflop? Then isolating of whom are talking about? UTG folded...

So what would have been the best move against cold 4-bet preflop? To just call or to fold my KK? If to call - what should I do on the flop 888 against his flop bet that was 100% sure to follow?
As to his cold 4-bet - he might have been thinking that I was just isolating the fish with something like AJ, AQ, medium pairs... So he could easily squeeze with AK, JJ, QQ... Why not?
 
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bgomez89

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Basically he's saying calling or min 5betting is much better because it keeps hands in his range that we still beat, whereas when we 5bet shove he only calls with AA.

Postflop is irrelevant because your mistake was preflop
 
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Didn't quite understand statement 3. You mean that if he 4-bets AK, QQ it would be better to call and to stack him postflop? Then isolating of whom are talking about? UTG folded...

So what would have been the best move against cold 4-bet preflop? To just call or to fold my KK? If to call - what should I do on the flop 888 against his flop bet that was 100% sure to follow?
As to his cold 4-bet - he might have been thinking that I was just isolating the fish with something like AJ, AQ, medium pairs... So he could easily squeeze with AK, JJ, QQ... Why not?

You have a serious deficit in the understanding of how live regs play and what their cold 4-bet range is in a loose passive game when someone 3-bets the UTG raiser.

I really think you should fold to the 4-bet in this spot.
 
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You have a serious deficit in the understanding of how live regs play and what their cold 4-bet range is in a loose passive game when someone 3-bets the UTG raiser.

I really think you should fold to the 4-bet in this spot.
I'm only learning... And losing too... But I'm quite determined to get to grips with it:) Thank you
 
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I have yet to see people fold KK preflop in cash games and don't think I ever will.
 
dgiharris

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Basically he's saying calling or min 5betting is much better because it keeps hands in his range that we still beat, whereas when we 5bet shove he only calls with AA.

Postflop is irrelevant because your mistake was preflop

This. When we have big hands our thought process shouldn't be "OMG I don't want to get cracked by trash or called by too many players thus I'm going to bet HUGE!!!!"

No.

Our thought process needs to be "How do I get weaker hands to call for more than they are worth so I can extract max value with my monster hand?"

And that is one powerful component to winning poker-- getting our villains to call for more than their hands are worth relative to our hands...


I have yet to see people fold KK preflop in cash games and don't think I ever will.

Then I guess you haven't played much deep stacked poker. I absolutely agree, 100bb deep to even 150bb deep no one folds KK preflop. But it is rare that you see 250bb+ preflop shoves that are not specifically AA vs KK.

The only reason to ever call a 250bb+ preflop shove with KK is when you have actual hand history and have personally witnessed a spewy villain who routinely gets it in 250BB+ deep with QQ, AK. Then by all means against this stack off monkey you can never fold KK. Otherwise, you are going to be correct in folding KK preflop to 250bb+ 5-bet shoves.

And again, the reason is simple. Very few players 5-bet shove 250bb preflop with QQ/AK. And preflop 5-bet shoving 250bb+ with KK is bad because youyou fold out JJ, QQ, and AK almost 100% of the time and ONLY get called by AA.
 
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You will find games where people stack off light. I've gotten it in pre with AA for 300 BBs effective and gotten 3-4 callers on multiple times. But in the majority of passive low-limit casino games you will never get called off for that much by worse than KK.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I have played against some laggy villains. But even they don't 4-bet without something really strong, like KK+, especially OOP.

I know others have said it. I will say it. The only hand that is going to call your 5-bet shove is AA. Unless of course the rare occasion where a total spewtard is the one giving you the action.

In live ring games, people never fold KK. I think most people have the mindset that it is just an unlucky cooler to run into AA.

And furthermore, even loose players wake up with a hand once in a while.

As played, flat the 4-bet and see the flop IP. You could fold too. Villain's hand was sorta face-up preflop.

I just think if you bomb away preflop (5-betting), you are folding out all the hands you are crushing, and you will get coolered.
 
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4 bets live are almost always KK/AA. Probably can't get away from KK but we should definitely be flatting in position this deep (if we shove, only AA is calling)
 
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4 bets live are almost always KK/AA. Probably can't get away from KK but we should definitely be flatting in position this deep (if we shove, only AA is calling)
Thank you all for your explanations. Now my eyes are really open to my mistake... The only thing ... Whay if I had flatted... How should I know with this type of board (888) that the vilain had AA (he might easily cold-4-bet because he might think I was 3-betting the fish for isolation with a hand like AQ, AK, AJ, JJ, TT). So I would have been unsure whether he was holding QQ or AA). How would I have reacted to his big flop bet?
 
Beanfacekilla

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Thank you all for your explanations. Now my eyes are really open to my mistake... The only thing ... Whay if I had flatted... How should I know with this type of board (888) that the vilain had AA (he might easily cold-4-bet because he might think I was 3-betting the fish for isolation with a hand like AQ, AK, AJ, JJ, TT). So I would have been unsure whether he was holding QQ or AA). How would I have reacted to his big flop bet?


Villains hand is pretty much face up here. His range is KK+. He is not 4-betting OOP with anything less than KK IMO. So it is an easy fold on the flop unless you hit a set.

Tough to do, but considering range, the only hand you are not losing to is KK.

Of course it is hard to get away from. Most players will stack off here. Not saying I could get away every time either.

Just think about this hand next time you find yourself with KK. That's all you can do really.
 
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