$400 NLHE Full Ring: Aces nightmare

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mrmattymatt

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$400 NLHE Full Ring: Aces nightmare

So im new to the forum. In fact this will be my first post. So apologies if this isnt structured the right way.

I just got back from a cash game $1/3. I usually play a game around 1-2 times per month but recently ive been playing 1-2 times per week. I dont remember all the details like stack size but ill do my best to explain my position. Id love to hear what you guys would have done in my position.

So im UTG+2 and get delt As 10s :as4::10s4:

I raise to $20 and 4 players call.

The flop comes Ah Qc 7d:ah4::qc4::7d4:

It checks around to me and I bet $30

MP3 calls and everyone else folds.

The turn comes Ad.

At this point Ive made trips and am hoping for a ten on the river to make the boat.

I raise to $50 and my opponent calls.

The river... Kc :kc4:

I check and my opponent raises to put me all-in. Around $120.

I ponder for awhile and I put him in a weak position trying to dig himself out of a hole, so I call.

He shows:
Ac Kd

Give me your advice on how you would play. I still consider myself a novice player so please let me know what you think
 
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Ahoy

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First thing you should change in your game to help you would be to think about ranges and not about specific hands.

1. You are going to the flop 5 way. Thats massive. Betting AT there looks super thin value to me and I think its not ideal... But this might not be the mistake.

2. When your opponent called the flop bet, did you think what kind of hands does he call here?

Lets think about his flop calling range. I wouldnt normally put AK in his range as he should be raising pre flop with that, but I see that live the ranges are different and people are more passive.

So his flop calling range would me something like this:


AA, KK, QQ, 77


AK, A7s, AQ, AT, AJ, generally some lower Ax hands
Then some KQ, QJ maybe KJ

3. You bet 50 more and he calls again on a paired board. You were the first one to raise preflop, everybody other just called - you have the strongest range, in UTG+2 you have so many Ax hands that he is literally never calling here with worse than Ax or a full house.

4. River is a king which is not that bad because if he has AJ you will chop. But there are stil LOADS of hands that beat you there. River bet is very bad. I give you one task.

Think about what worse hands than AT call you on this river

5. Guy shoves all in and you call. You mention that you put him in a weak position.
What is the thought behind this? How did you come to a conclusion that he is weak?

What kind of hands and draws is he calling from the flop to shove them on a paired board on the river? There are zero flush draws with which he could do this. This board is just non drawy, except KJ which is less likeley given that the river is a K. And in fact KJ is a very bad bluff to shove on that river. Because its clear you have Ax and you are rarely folding that one there.

EDIT: Your stack is so small on the river comapred to the pot that his bluffs there have very low folding equity. He should almost never be bluffing in this situation. Because you are rarely gonna fold with so much already commited to the pot and so few left behind.

Also, three of a kind without kicker opened from UTG+2 called down 2 streets on such a massively high card board is not a 3 street value hand.

River is clear fold. Just think about his range of hands on every street and you will see that you overvalued your hand heavily.

Good luck further mate! :)
 
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CuddlyBobcat30

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I actually play a good bit of live 1/3, so here's some of my thoughts:
  • if the game is loose enough that you are still getting that many callers with such a large open, you should possibly tighten your range up a little when out of position
  • With that being said A10 is a sketchy hand in my opinion to play from early position, especially full ring. Though it does help that it's suited, you have to be prepared for someone else in late position to be calling with Ax, whether it's better or worse
    • You have reverse implied odds when late position players call you with Ax whether or not it's better than A10, because now they have a chance to fish for flush draws, disguise two pair hands, and trap when they have a stronger ace. On top of this, it's a lot easier in late position to get away from their aces that you have out kicked
  • I personally would check-call the flop. It's okay that it looks a little weak because it gives your opponent a chance to ponder whether or not the ace on the flop scared you.
    • by doing this you can use your weak top pair hands as bluff catchers, while losing the minimum if your opponent does have you beaten.
I guess what I'm really trying to get at here is polarizing your range. I think in general you should be betting some of your best holdings, strongest draws, and semi bluff hands that might be able to pick up equity on later streets if they do get called. Check/fold or check/call the middle parts of your range depending on the circumstances, and fold the bottom of your range.
A10 is in the middle of your range on the flop, and on the turn it doesn't affect the strength of your hand in terms of your range. (the top of your range is still AA, QQ, AQ, 77, and AK) once the river comes, A10 has moved from the middle part of your range that you can call with down to the lower part. There aren't many Ax hands in their range that they'd bet with that A10 can beat. A lot of their worse aces they'd most likely check back, and bet their stronger ones.
 
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mrmattymatt

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I actually play a good bit of live 1/3, so here's some of my thoughts:
  • if the game is loose enough that you are still getting that many callers with such a large open, you should possibly tighten your range up a little when out of position
  • With that being said A10 is a sketchy hand in my opinion to play from early position, especially full ring. Though it does help that it's suited, you have to be prepared for someone else in late position to be calling with Ax, whether it's better or worse
    • You have reverse implied odds when late position players call you with Ax whether or not it's better than A10, because now they have a chance to fish for flush draws, disguise two pair hands, and trap when they have a stronger ace. On top of this, it's a lot easier in late position to get away from their aces that you have out kicked
  • I personally would check-call the flop. It's okay that it looks a little weak because it gives your opponent a chance to ponder whether or not the ace on the flop scared you.
    • by doing this you can use your weak top pair hands as bluff catchers, while losing the minimum if your opponent does have you beaten.
I guess what I'm really trying to get at here is polarizing your range. I think in general you should be betting some of your best holdings, strongest draws, and semi bluff hands that might be able to pick up equity on later streets if they do get called. Check/fold or check/call the middle parts of your range depending on the circumstances, and fold the bottom of your range.
A10 is in the middle of your range on the flop, and on the turn it doesn't affect the strength of your hand in terms of your range. (the top of your range is still AA, QQ, AQ, 77, and AK) once the river comes, A10 has moved from the middle part of your range that you can call with down to the lower part. There aren't many Ax hands in their range that they'd bet with that A10 can beat. A lot of their worse aces they'd most likely check back, and bet their stronger ones.

First thing you should change in your game to help you would be to think about ranges and not about specific hands.

1. You are going to the flop 5 way. Thats massive. Betting AT there looks super thin value to me and I think its not ideal... But this might not be the mistake.

2. When your opponent called the flop bet, did you think what kind of hands does he call here?

Lets think about his flop calling range. I wouldnt normally put AK in his range as he should be raising pre flop with that, but I see that live the ranges are different and people are more passive.

So his flop calling range would me something like this:


AA, KK, QQ, 77


AK, A7s, AQ, AT, AJ, generally some lower Ax hands
Then some KQ, QJ maybe KJ

3. You bet 50 more and he calls again on a paired board. You were the first one to raise preflop, everybody other just called - you have the strongest range, in UTG+2 you have so many Ax hands that he is literally never calling here with worse than Ax or a full house.

4. River is a king which is not that bad because if he has AJ you will chop. But there are stil LOADS of hands that beat you there. River bet is very bad. I give you one task.

Think about what worse hands than AT call you on this river

5. Guy shoves all in and you call. You mention that you put him in a weak position.
What is the thought behind this? How did you come to a conclusion that he is weak?

What kind of hands and draws is he calling from the flop to shove them on a paired board on the river? There are zero flush draws with which he could do this. This board is just non drawy, except KJ which is less likeley given that the river is a K. And in fact KJ is a very bad bluff to shove on that river. Because its clear you have Ax and you are rarely folding that one there.

EDIT: Your stack is so small on the river comapred to the pot that his bluffs there have very low folding equity. He should almost never be bluffing in this situation. Because you are rarely gonna fold with so much already commited to the pot and so few left behind.

Also, three of a kind without kicker opened from UTG+2 called down 2 streets on such a massively high card board is not a 3 street value hand.

River is clear fold. Just think about his range of hands on every street and you will see that you overvalued your hand heavily.

Good luck further mate! :)



Thanks for the analysis and advice guys. Now looking back on it I feel foolish that I fell for his trap. In my head I placed him on AK but i don't think I wanted to believe it, especially when that K came on the river.

So as I mentioned, Im a novice player. Only 22 yo and been playing 1-2 times per month for the past 6 months (been playing more frequently now that ive graduated and have a job).

What would be your advice to a new player like me? I feel the best practice is to just get out there and make mistakes and then learn from them. One thing I have been having difficulty with is figuring out odd's and outs on the fly. Any advice to better these skills?

Thanks again in advanced!
 
c9h13no3

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A few things:

- ATs from early position is loose. You need really drunk fish in the blinds to justify playing this hand.


- Your bets are tiny. I realize it's live, but try to bet half pot at least.


- Check the turn. Making trips on the turn or river is a classic trap. Everything that beat you on the flop (sets, bigger aces) still beats you (except Q7). And the hands you beat (Qx, draws) will usually fold to a turn bet.


- Your opponent has at least trips after calling twice and then shoving. Probably AQ or QQ that was comfortable slow playing. Live players are generally scared and weak. The best you can hope for is a chop on the river.
 
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mrmattymatt

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A few things:

- ATs from early position is loose. You need really drunk fish in the blinds to justify playing this hand.


- Your bets are tiny. I realize it's live, but try to bet half pot at least.


- Check the turn. Making trips on the turn or river is a classic trap. Everything that beat you on the flop (sets, bigger aces) still beats you (except Q7). And the hands you beat (Qx, draws) will usually fold to a turn bet.


- Your opponent has at least trips after calling twice and then shoving. Probably AQ or QQ that was comfortable slow playing. Live players are generally scared and weak. The best you can hope for is a chop on the river.

I think I just played it bad overall. The opponent was only at the table for ~20 minutes and in that time was playing every hand and seemed to be a loose player. I was putting him on a draw and was betting to show and overly strong hand.

More practice for me!
 
Ahoy

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What would be your advice to a new player like me? I feel the best practice is to just get out there and make mistakes and then learn from them. One thing I have been having difficulty with is figuring out odd's and outs on the fly. Any advice to better these skills?

That is indeed valid but very costly way. You will have to put the volume in at some time but it seems you did not study strategy and theory too much. I would start with looking at various online materials for free, for example upswing poker, or various streamers you can find online.

However, if you really want to spare your money before you start winning, you should stop playing live for a while and try playing online for cents. Like 2NL or 5NL. You will spend almost nothing comapred to 400NL and you will learn at a faster pace. The skill level will be similar I would say. Just get your basics in place and you should improve visibly.

Also try to post things on the forum, create your thread, or what ever suits you. You might be interested in my thread, or other cash game journal threads here in the cash games subforum where we discuss our strategies and plans.

To sum it up, I would start with some basic strategy videos you can find at upswing poker, watch some online videos of various players, and if you are a book guy you can even read a book about poker. Dont forget to analyse your play after you finish a session, this is essential.

EDIT: Here are some links that might help you:


UP - https://upswingpoker.com/category/poker-strategy/ (strategy articles)


UP youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHyxrwq_j4vcReGKd42tWyw (hand analysis, strategy videos and similar stuff)


DP youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyI7FNTudkyALBh9N7hwI9Q (hand analysis and other stuff)


RYE youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEN-gXxV3gi049oJFRi63hA (sessions with commentary and analysis)




GL :icon_comp:nurse:
 
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WabiSabi

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I don't think you done anything wrong but then i don't play live or full ring.
 
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mrmattymatt

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Thank you for the links! Much appreciated.
 
CRStals

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Interesting hand first off.

Definitely tough reading that to put MP on AK in that spot. Which players called your raise? Was MP3 the first to call or the last?

Regardless, being live the pre-flop raise is what it is. Some rooms have bigger raises as a tendency, so if that's what the play is like there cool. Personally I'm probably not going 6.5BB first in, but whatever.

I don't get the flop bet size. If 4 called your bet, why are you only betting 30 into 100? Which comes back to the initial caller - if MP3 was the third to call, they had odds to call with anything, so you basically give them odds to continue with anything.

Here's the big question - how much previous info do you have/ Are they calling stations or a tight player? Because when they call the turn you have to wonder what's up. Board's paired, you have trips, there was only a runner runner flush draw...it all smells like you're being set-up.
 
Sil3ntness

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Bet bigger on the flop maybe like at least 50% when you're facing against 4 people in that spot. Overall though it's an unfortunate cooler.

If you really want to tighten up your range you can play like AQs, AK, TT+ from UTG and continue to raise as much as people with call with the top of your range. If you get 4 people to the flop with a 6-7x raise, just raise even higher and play tight. Value town stations to death and profit.

Make note of villain's tendencies to cold call with premium hands and realize that their equity is going to be stronger than normal.
 
supernuts25

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that's rough , but i also agree maybe try and think what there range is although it looks like they disguised there hand pretty well preflop, its easy to get tunnel vision when you flop a big hand, and either way i think you going to be stuck on this hand, you really cant put him on a big ace, and a straight would be in likely , chalk it up to a tuff break,

and u only know how this player was playing as we weren't there, so had he played a big ace like that at any point, but if u put him on a bluff of a weak hand yourcalling anyways
 
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