$400 NLHE Full Ring: 500NL live game Flush...but am I really good here?

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Ubercroz

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$400 NL HE Full Ring: 500NL live game Flush...but am I really good here?

So This is a live game with some folks I've played with on a fairly regular basis. We all kind of get how each other plays and there are a few maniacs at the table.
Pretty much every one is deep here and I just laid down AJ to a 4bet the previous hand which has a dent in my stack still around 75bb,- everyone else has 150bb or more.

I'm MP and everyone limps in behind me I have Ks2s, not exactly an mazing hand but if the flop is right I think its worth the limp. Everyone except for two guys call so the pot is juiced and its multi-way amazingly no one raised preflop.

The Flop is 7d 5s 6s. That a pretty good flop for me but it could have hit a lot of these other guys too.

SB checks, BB bets around 2/3's the pot (i think it was like $15 into a $35 pot), UTG calls, I call everyone else folds.

Pot is now $65 Turn is the 8s.

BB checks and UTG leads out for the pot $65- by the way UTG is a solid player and RARELY gets his money in bad (save for the occasional bluff) but he is definitely a solid player.
I flat the turn... for reasons I can get into later.

River is Th, so a big blank. UTG leads out for almost the pot $190. I have around another $135-$145 left behind after the $190.
Hero...?
 
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bubonicplay

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I would put all my chips in the middle. Not sure what else you would do here.

Also I would either fold or raise preflop.
 
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baudib1

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Any other reads on UTG, like what is his UTG limping range...in a multiway pot, would he not raise on a nut flush draw? Any physical tells as he puts out the river bet?
 
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Zybomb

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... Snaps

SF or A high flush gh sir. Tons of other flushes are in his range even if he's never bluffing putting you on a marginal hand since you just flatted the turn

Didn't see the edit that you only have 135 behind after the 190. Just get it all in in that case, he's never folding worse flushes
 
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Any other reads on UTG, like what is his UTG limping range...in a multiway pot, would he not raise on a nut flush draw? Any physical tells as he puts out the river bet?

Good question- he has a huge limping range to be honest- he's very fond of "deceptive play" preflop Not saying he's gonna limp big PP's but any suited A, even big A's like AQ, AJ could be limped.

Actually I have seem him limp raise a big pp from UTG. So it could be lots of hands.

No tells I can think of, looked calm when he made the bet.
 
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baudib1

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yeah well, we're never folding, our hand doesn't look very strong...looks like we're still drawing. Obviously a lot of suited aces are in his UTG limping range but it sounds like he can have plenty of other stuff, too...like QsJs or whatever. When you played this hand, were you really looking for a better board? KK2?
 
c9h13no3

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I flat the turn... for reasons I can get into later.

River is Th, so a big blank.
2 things:

1) What reasons do you have for flatting the turn? Not saying its particularly bad, but I'd like an explanation, since my default play is to shove the turn.

2) Th is not a total blank. It changes the nut straight from six to ten, to seven to jack. Minor detail, but if villain has J9, it makes a big difference since he beats all other 9x hands.
 
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2 things:

1) What reasons do you have for flatting the turn? Not saying its particularly bad, but I'd like an explanation, since my default play is to shove the turn.

2) Th is not a total blank. It changes the nut straight from six to ten, to seven to jack. Minor detail, but if villain has J9, it makes a big difference since he beats all other 9x hands.

As to #1 I flatted mostly due to a big meta game. He knows I play a tight game- one of the reasons I limped k2 was to spice up the play. By flatting the turn I disguise my hand strength. If I raise the turn it pretty much displays that I have the hand I have while he may call the turn with another flush becaue I'm also capable of bluffing here a little he's most likely to lay down weaker hands.
On the river he leads into me again. Now this clarifies his hand a lot is completely polarized here to a bluff or a big hand. Big hands are pretty limited to flushes that are not the K. Which means an A or Q high or a bluff. Again he's not leading into me knowing that I'm likely to call with any flush with something weak. That being said how does that change the river? His hand is reduced to A high Q high Straight flush. If I raise the river given what we know will he call with worse hand very often?
 
5TR8 FLUSH

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I would of shoved on the river with the 4th best hand, but very likely 2nd best because I doubt he would of had 4s7s or 7s9s. I hope you at least called just to see his JsQs flush, so what happened?

Well played until river, GL. :)
 
ChuckTs

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By flatting the turn I disguise my hand strength

If you think this is the case (and I agree it is), then why are you even considering folding river?

By flatting turn you induce worse hands to value bet (straights, ALL flushes, not just Q/A-high and straight flushes, once in a blue moon a set or two pair), and also induce bluffs.

You clearly beat his range, have underrepped your hand tremendously, and if he has a flush he's basically never folding to a raise (weak players don't see hands in relative terms, but in absolute terms. IE "I have a flush, I don't fold", not "I have the 4-high flush and I don't expect my opponent to shove worse than maybe the Q-high or K-high flush, so I have to fold even though I'm getting a good price".)

Just shove - people can't fold flushes, and if he happened to play a straight this fast then he's pretty likely to pay you off too.
 
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This s actually a slightly modified hand from the first episode of high stakes poker between Helmuth and Esfandiari. I modified the stakes to try and disguise it a little but was curious about CC's thoughts on how the hand was played. Esfandiari limped with AQs and helmuth called the river rather than shoved.
Knowing that does it change anyones opinion on the hand knowing who the players are? Did Helmuth make a mistake by flatting and calling? Should esfandiari have checkraised?
Hope this wasn't to much of a let down but I'm not rolled for 500nl.
 
ChuckTs

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Assuming the stack sizes are proportionally the same (ie in bbs), I do think it's a mistake not to raise that river without some insane read. That said, those two play each other all the time and may have that dynamic going, who knows.
 
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Assuming the stack sizes are proportionally the same (ie in bbs), I do think it's a mistake not to raise that river without some insane read. That said, those two play each other all the time and may have that dynamic going, who knows.

Yeah I adjusted to appropriate bb- at least effective stacks and relative bet sizes- there are antes which changes it a little but not too substantially I guess. 80,000 would be around 100 bb and he had 50kish left at that point.

Part of what I was looking at is that metagame, especially live I think, plays a big roll as the players become better. How does the metagame affect the way that we view the hand and consider the actions of the other players. Antonio knows Phil has got a pretty big hand. And Phil knows that Antonio knows this which has to impact how strong he considers his hand. Just an exrcise in game thought I guess.
 
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baudib1

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I ran into a very similar hand that I posted here a few months ago, where I had the K-high spades flush vs. the nut flush, and this was a backdoor flush, in a 3-handed game. The difference is I had been the aggressor for the entire hand and he minraised me on the river, and was exuding enormous strength and I merely called.

In this situation I can see where Hellmuth would only call because he knows Esfandiari is a good player and is unlikely to be limping small suited connectors UTG.
 
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I just laid down AJ to a 4bet
I have nothing to say about the rest of your post that someone else hasn't said already, but regarding the above: Am I to understand that you 3bet AJ preflop with the intention of folding it to a 4bet? You should probably reconsider your ranges for doing this, unless this particular player opens wide, calls 3bets extremely wide on top of this, and only 4bets monsters.
 
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I have nothing to say about the rest of your post that someone else hasn't said already, but regarding the above: Am I to understand that you 3bet AJ preflop with the intention of folding it to a 4bet? You should probably reconsider your ranges for doing this, unless this particular player opens wide, calls 3bets extremely wide on top of this, and only 4bets monsters.

You missed it Paulsson :)

He is posting a hand from High stakes poker.

Actually what happend is Helmuth laid it down to the 5-bet show after he 4-bet I believe, but that was the 1st episode over 3 weeks or so ago.
 
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If I was in Helmuth's shoes, here's what I'd be thinking:

I agree wholeheartedly with just calling here. With a board like that, you gotta figure he's got at leat the 4th nuts to continue (but YOU only have the 3rd nuts, haha). He has to figure you for a hand that is going to be hard to push you off - set, straight, or likely flush. That said, I reason he's betting for perceived value. If you put your opponent on the remaining AXs, a lower flush, with a few sets / straights in there, I think it's probably about 50/50 that he has you beat here, even though poker stove says you're ahead of that range (if I did the inputs right). You have zero fold equity with a shove on the riv, btw.

By calling the turn, you're inving lower flushes and straigts to keep betting - which you want. So, if you're not going to call the river bet, why call the turn?

I definely call here - but not raise - simply because the action on the turn invites the lower end of the sets/straights/flush type hands to continue betting. Save the chips the times you're beat and happily scoop 'em up if you're not.
 
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baudib1

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As this is live there is definitely a dynamic going on and reads are super important. Hellmuth...I don't know how to describe him...he's generally a supernit with spewtastic tendencies.

While his range on the button is going to be a lot wider than usual, his range for NOT raising the flop but calling the turn is almost always going to be flushes -- he is going to raise preflop in most cases with any overpair (even if he suspect's Antonio's UTG limping range is pretty strong, which it is, he limps big hands UTG a lot, and if I know this, surely Phil does). He is raising the flop with 2 pairs or +1 pair + SD hands (87,65,76) and usually raising with sets and straights.

So Esfandiari surely knows Phil's range on the turn is super strong; Phil knows he knows; thus Esfandiari bets the pot instead of value-betting, and Phil obviously can't fold but knows he can't really raise either.
 
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bubonicplay

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You guys do realize that Hellmuth is basically terrible at cash games compared to the other players in those games right? I mean people like to rag on him and most small stakes online players who claim they're better than him are just idiots but when you're talking about world class nlhe players Hellmuth is just miles behind them and it shows every time he plays in those games. He just makes a lot of mistakes. Don't get me wrong I would too if I played and he's probably better than I am, but honestly Hellmuth does this because he's not particularly good at poker and doesn't want to get owned I think by someone who's clearly better than him.
 
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Ubercroz

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You guys do realize that Hellmuth is basically terrible at cash games compared to the other players in those games right? I mean people like to rag on him and most small stakes online players who claim they're better than him are just idiots but when you're talking about world class nlhe players Hellmuth is just miles behind them and it shows every time he plays in those games. He just makes a lot of mistakes. Don't get me wrong I would too if I played and he's probably better than I am, but honestly Hellmuth does this because he's not particularly good at poker and doesn't want to get owned I think by someone who's clearly better than him.

So what your saying is that Helmuth, who is a world class NLHE player, is not good at poker?
Maybe I misread something.
 
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Zybomb

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Its well known that Hellmuth is one of the top tournament no limit holdem players. Outside of this area (other tournament games, cash games of all types) he is not considered anywhere near the top of the pack, and is actually seen as a mark in some of these games
 
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bubonicplay

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Hellmuth is the fish in most of the PAD games. That's pretty well accepted by everyone in that game but Hellmuth himself, and I guess that inside he knows he's a dog but his ego won't let him admit it plus he'd hurt his image. I'm sure he's decent at push/fold games that are so common in tourneys but when you put him 200bb deep against the real world class players he's just not even close to as good as them. But then again neither am I and likely neither is anyone else posting here.
 
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baudib1

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I watched this episode finally and I have to say that while Hellmuth did play some hands terribly, he played this well.

There's not much else he can do here but call. Esfandiari commented on the hand and said that he was pretty sure Hellmuth had a flush (see my commentary above) and that really, the best play would be to check the river. It's interesting that Hellmuth is on Antonio's right on PAD this week and he always thinks that Esfandiari is making moves on him. When in reality, Antonio plays pretty damn tight in these games, while splashing around a lot in the tournaments. Hellmuth made a ridiculously bad play by checking TPTK on the river vs. Antonio after check-raising the turn when it should have been pretty damn obvious Antonio had at least mid/top pair.

other notes:
Hellmuth does play terribly, the 4-bet with AJo was ridiculous, he was obviously steaming and trying to rely on his read to get Ivy to fold something like TT/AQ. I have to say if you watch the footage of the hand: 1. Hellmuth was steaming and everyone knew it. 2. Ivey was joking and making casual conversation but became deadly silent when he saw there was a raise to him, this is like the most basic Poker 101 tell there is. 3. Ivey correctly surmises that his QQ is good and correctly goes all-in, Hellmuth says he could make a thin call because Ivey could have "the 98 of spades." Yeah, whatever Phil, have you seen Ivey put in $200K that bad before?

Compare that to Hellmuth's play with AQ the two hands previously...He has a raise from Durrrr and a reraise from Dario, two of the LAGgiest players on the planet and he mucks AQo, and then limps AQ on the button and has Ivey take him off his Ace-high with 6-high on the turn.

The J5s hand was just a cooler the way the flop came, but if Phil weren't tilting he wouldn't have played the hand.
 
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