$400 NLHE Full Ring: $500 NLHE Live $2/$5

Hey guys. I just wanted to post this to see what you guys are doing in this spot on the turn:
Folds to me in the HJ. I have KK. I raise to $15. This is the standard raise at this table. Entire table is deep. I have $760, average stack is about $900.
CO calls. (tight player)
Button calls. (tight player)
SB calls. (tight but looser than CO/Button)
BB calls. fish.
Reads: Button was a very tight player. Generally his button calling range includes 22+ and broadway hands.
Flop Q37r.
I bet 45.
fold, Button call, fold, fold. Heads up on the turn.
Turn 9.
Hero?

Bet again. The 9 is a pretty safe card. QJ/QK/QT all still behind.

Also open for at least $25

Aldito said:

Bet again. The 9 is a pretty safe card. QJ/QK/QT all still behind.

Also open for at least $25

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Well, as far as the PFR, the fact that I had so many callers wasn't because I raised to $15.
Had I raised to $20 or $25, the outcome would have still been the same. At this casino there are quite a bit of regulars on the 2/5 game and it is always very deep. For some reason the $15 raise became standard.
In this session, I had already had a couple showdowns with strong and weak hands while raising to $15. Along with the rest of the table. So for balance, I believe it was ok.
However, if there was limpers in front of me, I add $5/limper. Which again, is the standard for the table. But since I was the open raiser, I raised to $15.
Generally, at other places where I play 2/5, etc., I open for $20 and add $5/limper.

sactokid544 said:

Well, as far as the PFR, the fact that I had so many callers wasn't because I raised to $15.
Had I raised to $20 or $25, the outcome would have still been the same. At this casino there are quite a bit of regulars on the 2/5 game and it is always very deep. For some reason the $15 raise became standard.
In this session, I had already had a couple showdowns with strong and weak hands while raising to $15. Along with the rest of the table. So for balance, I believe it was ok.
However, if there was limpers in front of me, I add $5/limper. Which again, is the standard for the table. But since I was the open raiser, I raised to $15.
Generally, at other places where I play 2/5, etc., I open for $20 and add $5/limper.

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we're raising more because we have a premium in a live game and the bb is a fish.

barrel the 2nd card like 100%

Aldito said:

Bet again. The 9 is a pretty safe card. QJ/QK/QT all still behind.

Also open for at least $25

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+1

Campbell92 said:

we're raising more because we have a premium in a live game and the bb is a fish.

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And because everyone's so deep, so we want to get the SPR right if we're 3-bet.

sactokid544 said:

Well, as far as the PFR, the fact that I had so many callers wasn't because I raised to $15.
Had I raised to $20 or $25, the outcome would have still been the same. At this casino there are quite a bit of regulars on the 2/5 game and it is always very deep. For some reason the $15 raise became standard.

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You know this is a good thing right?

33/77 = 6combos
AQ/KQ = 18 combos.

Keep on betting.

bgomez89 said:

You know this is a good thing right?

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Meant to respond to this earlier but I was out playing a tournament series in Reno, NV.
Sorry, I guess my explanation was off. Yes I know it's a good thing.
I responded that way because I thought people were saying to raise more in order to get less callers. Which really didn't make sense to me.
I chose $15 for balance because I did raise and showdown a weaker hand when raising to $15. I generally don't like varying my raise size just because I have KK in this spot. Plus, I opened in mid/later position.
I understand we want more value but I figured it was implied on later streets because villain generally puts me on a wider range when raising to $15 and KK just happens to be the top of it.

Deco said:

33/77 = 6combos
AQ/KQ = 18 combos.

Keep on betting.

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By the time the turn gets here, there is about $160 in the pot.

Just curious:

As I said in another post, I raised to $15 for balance. So, villain does put me on a wide range. Because this pot is like a zillion handed (lol), how does villain interpret my c-bet?

I ask this because, if I c-bet here, that may or may not imply a ton about my hand. But if I barrel the turn, villain has seen me c-bet vs a zillion opponents, then when I fire the barrel on the turn, doesn't that just turn my hand face up?

Is there any merit to checking and inducing him to try to float or value bet the turn with Qx?

Also, in a deepstacked FR game, how many streets of value are we looking for? If we are looking for 2 streets, I can accomplish that by also checking the turn. I ask this because if I fire the turn and river, pot size is about 400 will be equal to stack size on the river. Which means any bet on the river is basically all of it. Do we really get 150 BBs in the middle on a Q high rainbow board with 1 pair?

don't raise for balance, fish don't care about balance, they just look at their cards. i can't believe you would say that you'd get the same number of callers if you open to $25 as to $15 and don't see why that's a good idea when you have kings

Pascal-lf said:

don't raise for balance, fish don't care about balance, they just look at their cards. i can't believe you would say that you'd get the same number of callers if you open to $25 as to $15 and don't see why that's a good idea when you have kings

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I never said it wasn't a good idea. I agree it is a good idea. But villains which have position on me are good enough to smell something when I all of a sudden open raise to $25. Basically, I make less money after the flop. I believe I get value from weaker hands when raising to $15 because villain has me on a much wider range. If I raise to $25, even though villain(s) may call, it is easier for them to assess my opening range. Therefore, harder for them to call bets on later streets. Or easier to trap when their 6 combos of sets hit hard.

There is only 1 fish and he calls in the BB after he sees basically everyone else call. He isn't even in the question because he goes away after I c-bet. All other players are generally good. Villain is a tight player but he is also a 5/10 and 10/20 NL player. SB is also a 5/10 player. There is no 5/10 going so these guys are playing 2/5. I guess I should have also included that with my reads. Sorry about that.

On the turn, villain is good enough to put me to the test to see if I barrel the turn by sticking in a big raise. That's why I'm curious if checking the turn is ok to induce a bet instead of betting the turn and having to face a big raise when super-deep stacked OOP with KK on a crappy board.

If that's the case then you should always open to 25 to make them think you have a tight range then bluff accordingly

bgomez89 said:

If that's the case then you should always open to 25 to make them think you have a tight range then bluff accordingly

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I agree. If my first raise was also to $25. But it wasn't.. My first 3 raises at the table were to $15. Every subsequent raise thereafter was also to $15. So, to be consistent, I made the same raise. I don't think I'm THAT out of line to raise to $15 here am I?

Now, if my first raise was to $25, I would have followed the same pattern.

Plus, I don't mind raising to $15 because with stacks this deep, we are going to have a lot of play on later streets anyways.

Think about it this way.. All of you who still play online, the standard open raise is still generally 3x. If you have KK in this spot and you always raise to 3x, you guys are still going to raise to 3x. .. right? I don't see what people are telling me change my pattern just because I have KK. If that was the general decision, good players are going to pick up on that.

1)you said you would've gotten the same amount of callers of you raised more. If that isn't enough for you to raise to 25 then you have a serious leak.

2) you're making the mistake in thinking that live players are going to pick up on this. They won't. They're fish.

3) if I was playing online and had kk in this spot, you bet your ass I'd raise to 25 if I knew I'd still get a bunch of callers

bgomez89 said:

1)you said you would've gotten the same amount of callers of you raised more. If that isn't enough for you to raise to 25 then you have a serious leak.

2) you're making the mistake in thinking that live players are going to pick up on this. They won't. They're fish.

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I play with the same core group of players in my local club and this is spot on.

c9h13no3 said:

And because everyone's so deep, so we want to get the SPR right if we're 3-bet.

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You are probably a better player than me but I do have a question regarding SPR:

Given our particular hand, do we need to worry about getting our SPR correct if we're 3-bet? If we are 3-bet, SPRs are lower pre which means money is probably moving in anyways.

Assume we get 3bet by the button and we opened for $15 and 3bet size is $75 and I flat:

685/150 ~ 4.9

Assume we get 3bet by the button and we opened for $25 and 3bet size is $100 at minimum and I flat: 660/200 ~3.3

Also, I think I'm 4-betting here anyways. So if I get flatted, SPR is still low and money is going in.

I may not be as good with SPR decisions as you, so I might need to learn more.

bgomez89 said:

1)you said you would've gotten the same amount of callers of you raised more. If that isn't enough for you to raise to 25 then you have a serious leak.

2) you're making the mistake in thinking that live players are going to pick up on this. They won't. They're fish.

3) if I was playing online and had kk in this spot, you bet your ass I'd raise to 25 if I knew I'd still get a bunch of callers

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Ok, sorry. I don't post on the forums much, so sometimes I'm not good at trying to relay all of my ideas across.

At the time I am making my raise I don't know that I'm going to get all of these calls. What I was saying is that given the hands at this exact moment, when I did raise, villains were going to call 25 or 15. Does that make sense? It doesn't mean that everytime I raise I'm getting 4 callers. It means that in this case, I happened to get 4 callers. Their holdings at that moment were such that, a $10 difference in opening raise wasn't going to deter them to fold. That's why I said if I raised to $25, the result was still going to be the same.

I definitely agree, if I was going to get called by 4 people EVERYTIME I raise, hell ya, I'd pop it to $55 pre-flop and ship it all day post-flop.

It is has happened many times in this session where someone opens for $15 and everyone folds.

As for live players being fish, I agree at limits of $300 NL and below and maybe $500 NLHE and below at other places. Our casino here in California has 2/5, 5/10, and 10/20 games regularly.. I've played here for a long time live and players here at $500 NLHE + are not the same fish as the lower limits. I agree there are more fish live than online but I don't think I make that big of a mistake to assume this villains, which I have some history with, in this hand, to not be fish.