$400 NLHE 6-max: Light Calldown

Z

Zybomb

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$400 NL HE 6-max: Light Calldown

Villain is a fairly aggro fairly intelligent regular

Full Tilt Cash game, $2/$4 No Limit, 6 players

HERO (SB): $486
BB: $728
UTG: $433.80
MP: $607.90
CO: sitting out
Button: $949

HERO posts Small Blind $2
BB posts Big Blind $4

Pre-flop: 6
heart.gif
6
diamond.gif
($6)
UTG raises to $14
MP folds
Button folds
HERO calls $12
BB folds

Flop: 5
diamond.gif
8
spade.gif
T
spade.gif
($32)
HERO checks
UTG bets $22
HERO calls $22

Turn: 5
diamond.gif
8
spade.gif
T
spade.gif
4
club.gif
($76)
HERO checks
UTG checks

River: 5
diamond.gif
8
spade.gif
T
spade.gif
4
club.gif
K
heart.gif
($76)
HERO checks
UTG bets $55
HERO calls $55

Logic:

Villain doesn't have a big hand on turn or he would have likely bet the turn (although 76 got there theres still J9 97 and two spades for draws).

On river Villain puts me on a draw which whiffed or a middle pocket pair.... the King certainly could have hit him and if i have a pair i could fold putting him on Kx and if i have a draw Im always folding..... villain knows this, thus is betting this river with ATC thus I am calling.

Agree or Disagree with Logic.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I'm a showdown monkey but I don't generally call here. If the action was slightly different (you raising UTG, him calling OTB, then you betting the flop, him calling, and the rest as-is) I could find a call. However, with his UTG range and the added problem that some good players at this level can valuebet Kx and even QQ/JJ with the action given, plus the fact that this seems like a reasonable way for him to play AK and KQ, I just think his value range is too wide not to give him credit for having it.
 
M

Marginal

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But wouldn't he bet QQ and JJ on the turn? OP did say he was aggro and most aggro villains bet that turn with QQ and JJ. Take with grain of salt since I do not play this level
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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But wouldn't he bet QQ and JJ on the turn? OP did say he was aggro and most aggro villains bet that turn with QQ and JJ.
I'm mostly in the dark about this guy, and I'm especially in the dark about his view of hero, but even quite a few aggressive opponents will keep the pot smaller on the turn by checking back hands like that to induce bluffs by their opponents. I'd be kinda surprised to see aggressive opponents check back this turn with a draw, though.

If villain was me, my preferred line with JJ/QQ against regs would be to bet the turn and possibly check back the river if things got ugly. Not so if villain had a high (> 15%, let's say) turn check/raise and/or a high bet-river%. In that case I'd check back the turn with those hands very often. I'd probably also check back AT on this board, and I could very well valuebet that against a lot of the regs I play. Probably not with a 3/4ths sized bet, though.

If I wanted to find a call, I'd be suspicious of his bet-sizing, but that - again - depends so much on his specific tendencies and how he views us.
 
R

RAFC24

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Hi Zybomb,

Here is my micro-stakes experience read of the hand :)

Preflop:

So a fairly good tag raises UTG, Im assuming you are giving him credit for a pretty strong hand, any pair AK ,AQ maybe since his raising range is likely tightest here.

Your call with a small pair, ok in my book,even though against a decent player who raised UTG, other than a set and OOP it could be difficult to see the hand past the flop.

Flop:

Why are you check-calling here? calling controls the size of the pot, ok but with 2 overcards and a tight UTG raiser do you feel your ahead of most of his range?

Turn:

The 4c seems like a brick to me. Maybe he figured your check calling preflop and the flop meant you would likely fold to any bet and it's why he checked the turn? Maybe he figured you were in pot-control mode.

River:

I agree with your comments but to add my own interpretation, what hands did you think you were beating with your call?

I dont play at your stakes but do UTG raisers usually open-raise with cute cards like suited connectors? Do these pay off often enough heads up?

Please keep in mind I very much appreciate your feedback on my hand analyses and im just offering my student-of-the-game type perspective so I could be totally wrong or just not understand the rational behind what you did.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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By the way, consider check/raise bluffing the flop. Yeah, you're not going to get any better hands to fold, but you're at least going to take it down pretty often. It's a drawheavy board, which may make him suspicious that you're on a draw, but what can he do with 77 or KQ? If he thinks you have a flushdraw, re-raising will be your invitation to shove on him, so wet boards like these are - paradoxically, perhaps - kinda good spots to bluff naked, specifically because you can have so many draws looking to get it in. And if he DOES re-raise, you may somewhat safely assume that you're looking at a hand that either has you crushed, or he has a draw himself - which, frankly, is a favorite over your hand.

I like what Leatherass said about making small pairs your "bluff balancers" in these spots. There's a lot of ways for him to have hit this flop, which makes the re-raise perhaps not ideal from a bluff success point of view, but then again calling down is not exactly a cheap way of winning the pot either if it hit his range hard.
 
S93

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But wouldn't he bet QQ and JJ on the turn? OP did say he was aggro and most aggro villains bet that turn with QQ and JJ. Take with grain of salt since I do not play this level
Dont play this high either but if villain does turn out to have QQ/JJ i like the line he took alot.
On this board what would u expect a decent(im asuming villain thinks OP is a decent player or atleast not a moron ;)) villain to c/c flop and turn with that QQ/JJ beats?
If he does have QQ/JJ from his perspective he is probably only geting 2 streets of value from worse so checking back and either allowing villain(op) to bluff the river or value bet him self when checked to.
So he is keeping in our weak hands by checking the turn and increasing the liklyhood he gets another street of value and controling the pot size for the times we have a set here.

Somebody correct me if my thought procces is messed up here but i think this is a pretty nice line to take with QQ/JJ IF where against a decent player since if where against a fish we can just value bet all streets with QQ here...
 
F Paulsson

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Your thought process is good.

The downside to checking back the turn with JJ/QQ here is that you risk your opponent drawing out. But it's not a huge downside; SB is unlikely to have more than 5 outs when he's drawing, and if we think he'll bluff the river often, inducing a bluff works to our advantage. JT and similar hands are (or should, imo) call a second barrel here. However, to turn this back to the flipside, if SB has a hand like that, he's looking at about five outs, but will very often still call a river bet.

So, to conclude: Checking back the turn with hands that aren't terribly vulnerable to draws (i.e. 87s, where a hand like QJ would have 10 outs) works well against

1) air that floated and will bet the river (in which case we call)
2) medium strength hands looking for a cheap showdown that will check the river (in which case we bet)
3) monsters that will bet the river (in which case we get to the cheapest possible showdown.

Of course, this is all moot if villain would be willing to call off three barrels with JT, in which case bet/bet/bet with an overpair is the way to go.
 
Z

Zybomb

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Flop:

Why are you check-calling here? calling controls the size of the pot, ok but with 2 overcards and a tight UTG raiser do you feel your ahead of most of his range?

Turn:

The 4c seems like a brick to me. Maybe he figured your check calling preflop and the flop meant you would likely fold to any bet and it's why he checked the turn? Maybe he figured you were in pot-control mode.

River:

I agree with your comments but to add my own interpretation, what hands did you think you were beating with your call?

I dont play at your stakes but do UTG raisers usually open-raise with cute cards like suited connectors? Do these pay off often enough heads up?

Please keep in mind I very much appreciate your feedback on my hand analyses and im just offering my student-of-the-game type perspective so I could be totally wrong or just not understand the rational behind what you did.

As far as the flop goes it's close. Generally on non ace non face flops I'll be inclined to peel with a PP a lot, particularly if they play the turn straightforward more often than not

I turn a gutshot which helps matters out particularly when he checks. I think Im good at this point.

The river obviously sucks as KJ KQ KT AK are all in his range. But my feeling was villain had some hand reading skills and it was pretty clear that my hand was either a middle pair ro a busted draw. Betting would fold out busted draws always and middle pairs a lot as well, so it makes no sense for him not to bet ATC (without showdown value of course) in this spot. Since I am under the impression he is betting ATC his river betting range is AK AQ AJ KQ KJ QJ.... which about half we beat and half we don't (but obv more combos of non K hands bc of the K on the board). I don't think villain Value bets 77 or 8x here ever, and althought he can show up with AT/KT on occasion (or even like T9s) I think chances are he bets these hands again on the turn the majority of the time so I am discounting them. Finally the river bet sizing seems rather strange given the fact that we appear to have a busted draw or a medium PP. This bet doesn't seem to be sized to induce a call....more so to induce a fold. I think Kx or even if Tx tried to get value and didn't bet the turn, would likely bet a lot less

I'm not saying my thinking was correct here, but im just explaining what it was at the time
 
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