$400 NLHE 6-max: AA losing all stack to LAGs 6 time this weak… need some advise

Falcon1803 · Oct 4, 2013

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 34/30/4

Vilain is 34/30/4, 3 bet 10% With a stack of 1000$. Very loose and very aggressive. Seen him many times bluff 3-betting small SC, SG, OC and other stuff. He 3-bets more junk than premium hands. Sometimes he fires 3 large barrels with air, sometimes with monsters. Caught him many times by slowplaying. But still he is winning (My HM shows his winnings of 6000$ in more than a thousand hands). The reason that I post this hand is that the same thing happened to me 6 times this week – my AA, KK got killed in 3 and 4-bet pots by hands like 96s, T2s… Sort of a system rather than bad beats…
The hand I post here here is typical. What can I have done differently? How to deal with these guys?
I was BB with AA with a stack of 2200$. Villain was on the button. UTG bets 12$, button raises 40$, I raise 96$, UTG folds, button calls.
210$. Flop 9d5s6h. I bet 150$, Button calls.
510$. Turn 8d. I check, button bets 250$, I call.
River Kd, button bets 504$ and is all in. I call 504$.
Button shows 10d7d.
I would never imagine he could call my 4-bet with this hand. Also he called my flop c-bet with merely a gutshot and no FD. I put him on TT-QQ . I thought he perceived my check on the turn as weakness, maybe put me on AK that missed … Sometimes it seems to me that those guys work for the room and know the cards to come….
How should I have played this guy and how to play this type of player in the future?

swingro · Oct 5, 2013

Maybe I can give you an advice even though I am still a micros player. This is called image manipulation. Because you are both so deep this works nicely for a guy with huge experience in dealing with classic TAGs. You need to know how he sees you and work accordingly. But I do not think this will change over night. I saw a pro at APA poker, DrEldorado playing exactly how you described . From his perspective everything made sense .
Try a verry good coach. Invest some of your money to expect to win more .

blueskies · Oct 5, 2013

4 bet much larger preflop. The weak 4 bet just invites LAGs to play those types of suited hands. Assuming it's 400NL and my math is not wrong, he just has to call $56 into a pot $150. LAGs will call with suited gappers.

I would have made it AT LEAST $150. I am looking to stack off so I wanna build the pot as big as possible preflop. I also don't wanna give the LAG good pot odds to play speculative shit. Plus there's a third player (UTG) in the pot. Considering the UTG raise, there's a good chance he will call or come over the top.

Being OOP with just an overpair vs. a guy who would play ATC is tough. You're never gonna fold except on the scariest of boards so that sets you up for failure.

Also, the flop bet is too small. Punish these mofos. They'll still get you sometimes when luck goes against you, but you should be punishing them for playing too many hands when you have the goods.

swingro · Oct 6, 2013

blueskies said:
4 bet much larger preflop. The weak 4 bet just invites LAGs to play those types of suited hands. Assuming it's 400NL and my math is not wrong, he just has to call $56 into a pot $150. LAGs will call with suited gappers.

I would have made it AT LEAST $150. I am looking to stack off so I wanna build the pot as big as possible preflop. I also don't wanna give the LAG good pot odds to play speculative shit. Plus there's a third player (UTG) in the pot. Considering the UTG raise, there's a good chance he will call or come over the top.

Being OOP with just an overpair vs. a guy who would play ATC is tough. You're never gonna fold except on the scariest of boards so that sets you up for failure.

Also, the flop bet is too small. Punish these mofos. They'll still get you sometimes when luck goes against you, but you should be punishing them for playing too many hands when you have the goods.

I think he knows this. The question was not about ABC poker because that will not work on this guy. And the ~1000$ effective stack(250BB) makes it worth calling about any amount preflop. The villan is probably happier knowing that his opponent has Aces because of the implied odds.
The question is about how to deal with him and get value without hanging yourself. You can avoid the trouble playing like you said but that way you will get the minimum amount of value with your monsters. The villain is probably a much better player at reading hands and situations postflop than most of the players at this lvl. He called with that gutshot and backdoor flush draw but he still had 75% of his stack ~190BB.. I myself will not do this unless I know my opponent will pay me huge if I hit. This is what happened on this example. Falcon payed 750$ after the villan hit. A fold on the turn would had saved him a lot of money but could he fold?

blueskies · Oct 6, 2013

If you think villain won't fold to any 4 bet because of implied odds, more the reason to raise it big.

A big PP is only a monster preflop. After the flop, the only hands staying in the hand are the ones that can beat your overpair, thus against loose diarrhea types, extract as much value as you can preflop first, and then secondarily extract value but proceed with caution after that.

swingro · Oct 7, 2013

blueskies said:
If you think villain won't fold to any 4 bet because of implied odds, more the reason to raise it big.

A big PP is only a monster preflop. After the flop, the only hands staying in the hand are the ones that can beat your overpair, thus against loose diarrhea types, extract as much value as you can preflop first, and then secondarily extract value but proceed with caution after that.

Exactely. But how to counter a verry good player? He ended up loosing his stack because he could not pinpoint the exact range of the villain. Meantime the opponent knew exactely what amount he could afford to call,being positive that he will play for stacks if he hits. Folding AA on the turn for a half pot bet is a correct decision in this spot? Folding on the river for a half pot shove?
Looked at the hand from villains perspective. He had 2 options on the flop. Call or fold. Calling gives him the opportunity to hit the gutshot or to get some more outs if another diamond came. It was lucky he hit the bets card on the turn. But let's sy it was another diamond. With another diamond he now has 13 outs with the scarriest board ever for a big PP. If you are a good player you can scare the s..it out of anyone with a big semibluff.

bnasp2 · Oct 7, 2013

As already said. Bigger bet preflop, bigger bet on flop. If he still calls on flop then its just luck, because you are both pot commited.
And being both pot commited in big pot with better cards, that is exactly what you need.

vinylspiros · Oct 7, 2013

Look, my opinion although these limts are way out of my league,but the game is still the same .

AA versus someone who might have flatted your3 bet with ATC , any PP, and probably not an overpair is probably running slim to dead on this board texture. there is only one card to a straight, and all the middle sets have made it plus all the middle two pairs.

I am folding AA here alot of the time and especially to alot of pressure.

Just the way i see it. this was a crying call cause AA on a board like this is extremely vulnerable and alot of the time the second best hand.

All in All, 3 bet way bigger pre and fire big on the flop+ on turn.

Mechanic44 · Oct 7, 2013

it seems that there is nothing you can do. Alot of times something like 10 6 off sucked outh on my op. i play at micro,but that still make mee mad as fu^k.

swingro · Oct 7, 2013

Mechanic44 said:
it seems that there is nothing you can do. Alot of times something like 10 6 off sucked outh on my op. i play at micro,but that still make mee mad as fu^k.

This was not a suckout. It is not like they shoved the flop and villain caught a card. Villain played for the implied odds.

Matt Vaughan · Oct 7, 2013

turn is probably a fold. river is the easiest fold you are ever gonna get to make with aces.

baudib1 · Oct 7, 2013

move down to 25 NL

Matt Vaughan · Oct 7, 2013

baudib1 said:
move down to 25 NL

Looks like he's on his way. Last hand I saw OP post was $1knl.

blueskies · Oct 8, 2013

swingro said:
Exactely. But how to counter a verry good player? He ended up loosing his stack because he could not pinpoint the exact range of the villain. Meantime the opponent knew exactely what amount he could afford to call,being positive that he will play for stacks if he hits. Folding AA on the turn for a half pot bet is a correct decision in this spot? Folding on the river for a half pot shove?
Looked at the hand from villains perspective. He had 2 options on the flop. Call or fold. Calling gives him the opportunity to hit the gutshot or to get some more outs if another diamond came. It was lucky he hit the bets card on the turn. But let's sy it was another diamond. With another diamond he now has 13 outs with the scarriest board ever for a big PP. If you are a good player you can scare the s..it out of anyone with a big semibluff.

This is why IMO we gotta raise it up big preflop. If we raise preflop convincingly and bet big on the flop convincing and still get a call, then chances are, against a competent LAG at 400NL (where connectors and gappers are well within his range), we're behind.

He MAY have TT and JJ, but the chances are much greater for something like 89, 67.

When out of position, I'd rather win small hands by betting aggressively and folding draws against good post-flop villains than lose big when I get stuck in tricky spots.

duggs · Oct 8, 2013

4bet bigger given SPR, turn is a c/f river is a snap fold. He isnt value betting 1010-QQ on this runout, he has sets/straights/flushes

stately7 · Oct 8, 2013

Agree with much of the good advice you're getting here. If you're not going to price out these really good LAGs preflop with more substantial 3 bets and 4 bets - and that big bet on the flop (take that smaller pot) - then find a check/fold on the turn when it completes draws, you've spent less anyway.

If you're playing TAG, stay that way in early position, and LAG it up more in later position, set mine, call *sometimes* with those connectors and suited gappers. Obv you're going to hit the flop harder than an over-pair from time to time.

You know this… just offering some thoughts that may help reverse the losses. Some more experienced members may correct this.

stately7 · Oct 8, 2013

Not all good LAGs will call small 4 bets with those more speculative holdings, but at least you know now that SOME will due to implied odds / being deep / believing you will stack off with AA / KK.

baudib1 · Oct 8, 2013

Calling with ATC 250 BBs deep if hero plays AA this way.

Falcon1803 · Nov 6, 2013

blueskies said:

4 bet much larger preflop. The weak 4 bet just invites LAGs to play those types of suited hands. Assuming it's 400NL and my math is not wrong, he just has to call $56 into a pot $150. LAGs will call with suited gappers.

Click to expand...

blueskies said:
I would have made it AT LEAST $150. I am looking to stack off so I wanna build the pot as big as possible preflop. I also don't wanna give the LAG good pot odds to play speculative shit. Plus there's a third player (UTG) in the pot. Considering the UTG raise, there's a good chance he will call or come over the top.

Nice advice which I'll surely think over. Thank you indeed. The only problem I see here is that I didn't expect he would call with that shit. I expected him to call with TT-KK and I wanted him to keep the lower part of this range in. If I 4-bet more - he might have folded, but I wanted him to call or to bluff 4-bet - shove. I like SplitSuit video in this regard... He says that 22-25 BB is optimal because we want to keep the same sizes when we 4-betting for value and as a bluff so that to be balanced and not to risk too much when bluffing. But I should have adjusted the size being deep-stacked... here I surely made a mistake

Falcon1803 · Nov 6, 2013

duggs said:
4bet bigger given SPR, turn is a c/f river is a snap fold. He isnt value betting 1010-QQ on this runout, he has sets/straights/flushes

The problem is that it was difficult for me to predict the villain having 7x or SC (SG) because he 3 bet and then called 4-bet. It was possible, but less probable than not that he was 3-betting as a bluff with this type of hand. The fact that he didn't fold versus 4-bet made that assumption even less probable. That is why I expected him having a decent pocket pair here more often ... On this flop only 77 would have given him a SD, but would he 3-bet and then call a 4-bet with this hand? Possible, but not very probable imo. Of course, sets are always possible but the board was low while I thought that 77, 55, 66 holdings were less probable than, say, TT, JJ, QQ. And why didn't he reraise me with a set on the flop!!?? Only 77 that gave him a SD which completed on the turn can explain his line very well. Of course, he might have slowplayed a set.... But isn't it too many far-fetched assumptions? (1. 3-bet middle pair, 2. call 4-bet, 3. slowplay on the flop...) Did his half-pot turn bet really indicate that he was strong? Or he might have thought I 4-bet as a bluff or with a middle pair and wanted to bluff me out with pp that missed the set. The river might have been a bluff as well, especially knowing what type of guy he was... Given all this reasoning I thought bluff was more consistent with his line than set or a straight, the latter being almost impossible to predict (only 77 or 7x of hands of all combos that might have possibly called the 4-bet).

Falcon1803 · Nov 6, 2013

Falcon1803 said:
The problem is that it was difficult for me to predict the villain having 7x or SC (SG) because he 3 bet and then called my cold 4-bet. It was possible, but less probable than not that he was 3-betting as a bluff with this type of hand. The fact that he didn't fold versus 4-bet made that assumption even less probable. That is why I expected him having a decent pocket pair here more often ... On this flop only 77 would have given him a SD, but would he 3-bet and then call a 4-bet with this hand? Possible, but not very probable imo. Of course, sets are always possible but the board was low while I thought that 77, 55, 66 holdings were less probable than, say, TT, JJ, QQ. And why didn't he reraise me with a set on the flop!!?? Only 77 that gave him a SD which completed on the turn can explain his line very well. Of course, he might have slowplayed a set.... But isn't it too many far-fetched assumptions? (1. 3-bet middle pair, 2. call 4-bet, 3. slowplay on the flop...) Did his half-pot turn bet really indicate that he was strong? Or he might have thought I 4-bet as a bluff or with a middle pair and wanted to bluff me out with pp that missed the set. The river might have been a bluff as well, especially knowing what type of guy he was... Given all this reasoning I thought bluff was more consistent with his line than set or a straight, the latter being almost impossible to predict (only 77 or 7x of hands of all combos that might have possibly called the 4-bet).

Also, his 3-bet stat of 4% decreased the probablity of him 3-betting small and middle pocket pairs... AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK + bluffs are more likely imo. He would sooner just call a UTG bet with small and middle pairs on order to set mine.
SG are not the best hands to bluff 3-bet, hands with blockes are better imo... all this plus calling a cold 4-bet decreased the probability of him havind a SC or SG and made correct hand reading more difficult

stately7 · Nov 10, 2013

His call on the flop was extremely optional to say the least, but you know what type of player he is, so shoving on the flop may well have been the best play here to really give him something to think about - esp if you're a fan of the SplitSuit approach and keeping him in the hand preflop - it's risk vs reward though isn't it?

The other thing to remember here is that you know his range is difficult to close in on given his tendencies. But think of your image to him - villain can confidently put you on AA/KK here, maybe QQ.

Aces2w1n · Nov 11, 2013

I know this may sound odd... but if the same player is exploiting your high pp could we validate a 4bet shove? I know it's a crazy amount but at the sametime we should be rolled for moves like this so I think a shove would cancel out his post play... He wants a flop and we don't, so don't give it to him!

Exploiting his 3bet light range. And perhaps we could squeeze him a lot knowing he won't call a large amount of money in this spot, but can't overdo cuz he will catch on.

baudib1 · Nov 11, 2013

Dudes, what is this talk of pricing people out or overbetting preflop? We have the stone cold nuts. Why would we want to do that? The object of poker is to make money off people's mistakes, LOL @ letting him play perfectly.

The solution here is to clearly not ship in 200 BBs postflop when we are clearly beat.

Preflop: Villain puts in 14 BBs with 20% equity, on the flop he put in 37.5 BBs with 23% equity. On the turn and river we put in 188.5 BBs with 0% equity.

Falcon1803 · Nov 11, 2013

baudib1 said:
Dudes, what is this talk of pricing people out or overbetting preflop? We have the stone cold nuts. Why would we want to do that? The object of poker is to make money off people's mistakes, LOL @ letting him play perfectly.

The solution here is to clearly not ship in 200 BBs postflop when we are clearly beat.

Preflop: Villain puts in 14 BBs with 20% equity, on the flop he put in 37.5 BBs with 23% equity. On the turn and river we put in 188.5 BBs with 0% equity.

It easy to calculate equity knowing the result... I would be grateful to you if you checked my train of thought that I outlined earlier. Is there a slip somewhere? As to the vilain's play... Couldn't he be bluffing? If he has a 7 rarely here - was his raise enough reason to believe I was behind? I think if I start folding OP every time I get raised I'll be exploited and crushed ..

$400 NLHE 6-max: AA losing all stack to LAGs 6 time this weak… need some advise

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