$4 PL HE Full Ring: AK - Should I have folded at any point here?

kmixer

kmixer

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I am UTG + 1 here. What could/should I have done to save my stack. Was there any point where I should have bailed or backed off or did I make the right moves and just get beat by the best hand?


Stacks:

* BTN with $2.95
* SB with $2.12
* BB with $0.79
* UTG with $0.73
* UTG+1 with $1.96
* MP1 with $1.97
* MP2 with $1.16
* CO with $0.64

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to UTG+1:K♥ A♣
* * Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * UTG+1 raises to $0.06
* * 2 players fold.
* * CO calls [$0.04]
* * BTN raises to $0.26
* * 1 players fold.
* * UTG+1 calls [$0.20]
* * 1 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: $0.58
Flop:
* * K♦ A♥ Q♣
* * BTN bets [$0.60]
* * 1 players fold.
* * UTG+1 raises to $1.70, and is all in
* * BTN calls [$1.10]
* * UTG+1 shows :
* * K♥ A♣
* * BTN shows :
* * Q♠ Q♦
* * Potsize: $3.98
Turn:
* * 9♦
* * Potsize: $3.98
River:
* * 2♦
* * UTG+1 shows two pair, Aces and Kings
* * BTN shows three of a kind, Queens
* * BTN wins the pot ($3.74) with three of a kind, Queens

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

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Honestly, I think this is just bad luck. What kind of flop do you want with AK? Well, lots of A's and K's....which is what you got.

The only argument that can be made here, i think...is that anyone calling these raises here must have AA KK QQ....but, i don't think you can think this way. You've made top two pair on a rainbow board and I think this may just be bad luck....

I suppose this depends on the read...but, i'd expect to possibly see JJ, 10's, Q/K, AQ, AJ, all show up here....

You may have a tendency to minimize the chances of another AK or even AQ or KK AA because so many of those cards are already out there...and that does leave only QQ as the most likely hand.

But, I dont think you can just say "he has QQ" and we need to fold....so, to me it seems like an inescapable situation, especially at these stakes.
 
c9h13no3

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Fold preflop to the 3-bet. No one 3-bets at microstakes without a huge hand, so they almost never fold to 4-bets (which is where your profit 4-betting with AK comes from).

If you don't fold preflop, then just 4-bet and call it off. AK likes to see all 5 cards, and you're going to miss the flop more often than not. So 4-bet pre, and maybe he can convince himself to fold jacks, or something that's ahead of you.

Calling, and playing a reverse implied odds pot (win little when you win, lose a lot when you lose) isn't that great of an option.
 
kmixer

kmixer

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So then would you suggest folding over 4 betting, most of the time? I am fairly sure anyone at 01/02 is not laying down QQ after they 3 bet it. I see people holding K10o and think it is a huge hand from UTG I would be wrong to fold to K10 holding AK. I didnt have any kind of read on this player as it was only my thrid or forth hand at the table.

Should stack size be a big factor in deciding the fold vs four bet? Or if the player has been playing short stacked?
 
Last edited:
T

the west wing

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I think you played it entirely correctly.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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So then would you suggest folding over 4 betting, most of the time?
Yes. Most of the time, when players 3-bet at any stakes below $25NL, they have a monster hand. Every now and again, you'll encounter a maniac who's crazy, but you have to assume the average $2 NL player is loose-weak preflop. Lots of limping, lots of calling. They might raise light, but there's almost never any light 3-bets. Thus, when you 4-bet players with AK, they're folding 0% of the time. So the only way you want to 4-bet AK is if you're against a maniac, where AK is ahead of his range.

Should stack size be a big factor in deciding the fold vs four bet? Or if the player has been playing short stacked?
Absolutely. Stacking AK preflop for 60bb's is almost never wrong, while 100+, you could possibly fold it to a 3-bet.
 
kmixer

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Thanks for the advice guys. Anymore is greatly appreciated. I personally think that AK is over rated. Watching a lot of poker I see it get crushed a lot. In pl games I always think that correct move is to pot size bet when I think I have the best of it. If this had been a NL game I may have stacked after his 3 bet and certainly after the flop. More learning needed I guess.
 
StormRaven

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You either fold pf, which is what I would have done, c9h is right, that large of a reraise pf in micros = monster, or since you called you have to go ai with that flop and hope for the best.

You are right, AK is over-rated, I have a complete love/hate relationship with this hand. That is why I would've folded it pf to such a large reraise. If I'm in a tourney and ss I'm reraising ai and hoping for the best.
 
kmixer

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Thanks storm. c9 always gives me good advice. I just have to get myself to a point where I listen to said advice more often. :D

To me though I think most 01/02 players don't know what true premium hands are. Sure he had the best of this one this time but are we to believe that he would have folded Pre with 88 in his position? If he didn't and the flop came the way it did then he most likely would have left the hand. I have seen people start with xx have a flop come AK6 have people bet pot size and see them call pot size on the turn and river and turn over 22 after blanks come on Turn and River. I agree that huge raises mean huge hands to most micro players however I think there are way too many players that over value and think K9 suited in that same situation is premium and worth seeing the river even with the flop in this example.

Obviously these are the people we want sitting with us most often.
 
trewtrew

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all the money could have gone in at any point in this hand and neither player played the hand wrong just a cooler. Im never folding AK or QQ pre flop at 0.01/0.02, way too many donkeys put there money in with nothing
 
c9h13no3

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Yeah, I suppose with the average $2NL player playing so poorly postflop, you could call. Its not a big mistake. Just keep in mind that you're rarely going to out-flop a hand like QQ. Your odds of hitting a pair are roughly 33%. Odds of them hitting a set when you hit a pair is around 5%. So on about 60% of flops you will be checking and folding, and on 5% you will be donating your stack to a set. So on the remaining 35%, you need to recover a lot of money to justify your call preflop. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $0.4-$0.6.

But I would generally assume the average $2NL player is weak-tight with preflop re-raises until I'm shown otherwise.
 
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ljove

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That is not the worst what you can face it on 0.01-0.02
There is no respect for your raise.
You can raise 5XBB with AA and someone will posibly call with anything.
This is not a bad beat your opponent was in better position preflop.
He shows you strenght with his raise.
You was supposed to recognize his pocket pair.
At micro stakes tables, once I was AA and get call from player who had 5-6 suited and he floped full house.
Weird plays and calls are regular at micros.
 
Implied Odds3

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This is hard imo... I lean toward folding preflop and i agree with c9. Its between folding and 4 betting..

But, as played, theres no way you fold that flop.
 
kmixer

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Thanks for all of the additional insight.
 
WVHillbilly

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I assume you play fairly tight from EP and if so I'd recommend raising to 4x or even 5x from EP. Really has little to do with the actual hand posted but just an observation.
 
kmixer

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Was pretty much a pot size bet. I usually make Pot size bets in PL play as to not give away the strenght or weakness of my hands.

I think your advice is good. I think that in this hand it wouldn't have helped.

I assume you play fairly tight from EP and if so I'd recommend raising to 4x or even 5x from EP. Really has little to do with the actual hand posted but just an observation.
 
WVHillbilly

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Sorry didn't know/realize it was PL. Wouldn't a true PSB be to .07 though? Again doesn't matter for the hand, I'm just wondering.
 
kmixer

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Yes a pot size bet in this hand would have been 07. I only mentioned that to point out the angle of the pot sized bets.
 
Vfranks

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I like to raise like 8bb's if first to act, but add another bb per limper in front of me..seems to me that if you raise a little more then maybe you wont get as many callers(even though sometimes you get people calling with anything there) and will have a better chance with that hand..............there was nothing you could realy do there i woulda prolly done the same...just a bad beat, he got luckier
 
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