$4 NLHE6-max: Need help putting Villain on a range in 3 bet pot.

brank

brank

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I was trying to stove a range that would flat this c bet on this flop in 3 bet pot but couldnt really figure it out...

I think hands like AA and QQ raise this flop but even they are unlikely cause I think they 4 bet this PF, esp cause I was playin kinda Lag and 3 betting quite a bit as I was getting a lot of 3 betting type hands.

No real reads on player cause he was new to the table(looks like 20 hands) and I didnt have the HUD up. Some one keeps yelling about not needing it at 2nl so I figured I'd give it a try:D. I did check my stats for the sess after the fact and it said I was 26/25/54AFq with a 21% 3 bet so thats my table image.

What his range...?


full tilt poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $2.05
Hero (SB): $6.19
BB: $19.10
UTG: $11.26
MP: $5.77
CO: $3.71

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with K :heart: K :spade:
1 fold, MP raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, Hero raises to $0.42, 1 fold, MP calls $0.36, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.92) A :club: Q :club: 7 :club: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.54, MP calls $0.54
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Well if you think he's aware of what you've been doing he could have AJ+ (I'm assuming he's not a complete drooler here btw) with AK discounted somewhat. He could have like 77-JJ that decides to see how you handle the turn since you're range has a whole lot of nothing / 1 card FDs in it.
 
LuckyChippy

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I'm very tempted to bet flop, c/f turn. It sucks and the lack of stats makes it harder.
 
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baudib1

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His range is super wide cuz it's 2NL and he thinks you're a maniac. So he has a sh1tload of Ax and 1 pair + 1 club hands and even some small flopped flushes.

I might even c/f flop.
 
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fx20736

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Ok, I have about 30k hands at 5NL (Full Ring) on Full Tilt which isn't 2NL but I have to believe play is simliar.

3 betting at 5NL is really pretty rare except for the maniacs. Without a HUD and history of 200 hands+ or some read on a villian you really need to accept the fact that 3betting range for most villians at this level is AA/KK and AK. That's it. What that means is for the most part QQ, JJ & AK are way behind. Early in a session I play the following way:

JJ fold
QQ fold
AK fold
KK 4 bet/ shove
AA 4 bet/ shove

now what you can do if you really don't want lo lay down to a 3 bet or get stacked with KK vs AA is flat call with JJ, QQ, AK and play post flop as follows.

JJ you are mainly playing for set value. If you hit a set then it is C/R All in. Otherwise you could cbet but fold if re-raised and if you are called be prepared to shut down your hand if it doesn't improve on the turn.

QQ can be played two ways. If you flop an overpair then make a pot sized c-bet. You may take it down if you are up against AK that whiffed which should be about (. 75 * .66 = .495 or about half the time ) but be prepared to fold if you are re-raised. Of course if you spike a Q you are golden. To mix it up you could also check a low flop and since alot of players at this level are lost when they miss with AK is lead out on the turn with a pot sized bet on the turn if your Queens still beat the board. I would probably split 50/50 with these lines in this situation so you are less predictable.

Also if you hate risking your stack with KK you can flat and C/R all in on a non Ace flop. If you do decide to do that you also have to play Aces exactly the same way.

Finally if you do run into a villain with a 3bet range of 5%+ you should flat AA QQ and JJ some of the time because they may stack off with a dominated ace like AQ or AJ or maybe even KQ. Even better if you make your set and they want to smash the flop when they make top pair.

that's it for now.
 
WVHillbilly

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fx20736 said:
Ok, I have about 30k hands at 5NL (Full Ring) on Full Tilt which isn't 2NL but I have to believe play is simliar.

3 betting at 5NL is really pretty rare except for the maniacs. Without a HUD and history of 200 hands+ or some read on a villian you really need to accept the fact that 3betting range for most villians at this level is AA/KK and AK. That's it. What that means is for the most part QQ, JJ & AK are way behind. Early in a session I play the following way:

JJ fold
QQ fold
AK fold
KK 4 bet/ shove
AA 4 bet/ shove

now what you can do if you really don't want lo lay down to a 3 bet or get stacked with KK vs AA is flat call with JJ, QQ, AK and play post flop as follows.

JJ you are mainly playing for set value. If you hit a set then it is C/R All in. Otherwise you could cbet but fold if re-raised and if you are called be prepared to shut down your hand if it doesn't improve on the turn.

QQ can be played two ways. If you flop an overpair then make a pot sized c-bet. You may take it down if you are up against AK that whiffed which should be about (. 75 * .66 = .495 or about half the time ) but be prepared to fold if you are re-raised. Of course if you spike a Q you are golden. To mix it up you could also check a low flop and since alot of players at this level are lost when they miss with AK is lead out on the turn with a pot sized bet on the turn if your Queens still beat the board. I would probably split 50/50 with these lines in this situation so you are less predictable.

Also if you hate risking your stack with KK you can flat and C/R all in on a non Ace flop. If you do decide to do that you also have to play Aces exactly the same way.

Finally if you do run into a villain with a 3bet range of 5%+ you should flat AA QQ and JJ some of the time because they may stack off with a dominated ace like AQ or AJ or maybe even KQ. Even better if you make your set and they want to smash the flop when they make top pair.

that's it for now.
Click to expand...

Did you even read the OP?
 
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fx20736

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WVHillbilly said:
Did you even read the OP?
Click to expand...


Yes, I answered in a very roundabout way. The core of the question was putting his opponent on a 3bet range, I believe.

Also, I think he was debating about whether his LAG style would influence an opponent as to 3 bet or not. I really don't think 2nl players think about their opponen't cards at all so I was talking about hand ranges.

of course a one sentence reply would have been>

KK = SHOVE.
 
WVHillbilly

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No. The core of the question was putting his opponent on a 3bet flatting range. Hero 3bet his kings and villain flatted. So what's villain's flatting range?
 
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fx20736

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WVHillbilly said:
No. The core of the question was putting his opponent on a 3bet flatting range. Hero 3bet his kings and villain flatted. So what's villain's flatting range?
Click to expand...

sorry, obv. I skimmed. Hard to say. Could be AA, maybe AK possibly QQ or he could be set mining in a 3 bet pot with 77. Fact is that is a very scary board. Aside from the Ace, the fact that there are 3 Clubs and the Hero doesn't have one and he is OOP would make it very hard to proceed. If villian has AxKc he is drawing to the nut flush. If he has AA hero is crushed. If he has QQ or 77 hero is way behind with only 2 outs to improve. Furthermore say the turn was the King of Clubs that now makes a flush to anyone else holding a club so even if you were to miraculously make it to the River cheaply you could lose to a 7d7c so that out is discounted a little. Also what if he flatted with JcTc, not out of the realm of possibilties then villain has 2nd nut flush and is drawing to a royal flush. The only real solution is to bet out and shut down if called.

Of course if he is so concerned about his LAG image drawing fire then he could tighten up and play the game the way it is supposed to be played = TIGHT.
 
ChuckTs

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if you're cbetting the flop it's not to c/f the turn. You're betting flop because there's some value in all the gutters and flush draws and Qx and whatever else he's calling with.

In general, the tougher the opponent I'm playing against, the more likely I am to cbet a wa/wb situation to simply take the pot down. Against these guys it gets increasingly harder to pot control OOP and get to showdown.

I kind of doubt you have that problem at 5nl. You're still most likely ahead of his range on the flop, and if you're unsure what to do on the turn after cbetting the flop, just check/call the flop. A 5nl reg is probably unlikely to go for like 3 streets or even two big streets with AJ or something similar, so you're not giving up any pot control. It also induces bluffs from all his unimproved pocket pairs/gutters with no club/random stuff like 78h that missed completely.

Again, as you move up your competition will read hands better and will most likely get aggro enough with their bluffs that we can no longer pot control OOP, so cbetting might even be a better option.
 
brank

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Thanks guys. The range I was tryin to flesh out had less small pairs and more Ax hands and maybe the gutter draws with a club. Didnt know if I should be putting AK in there but I did considering the passive play I was seeing. Still came out close to the same %s in pokerstove.


My default OOP WA/WB line in the micros is to bet this flop just over 1/2 pot. I feel it gets enough value from most players and narrows their range enough to play out the rest of his hand, ie. if they call then they have something at least. My plan was to c/f to a big bet (3/4 or more) on the turn though and just c/c anything reasonable. Is that bad?



fx20736 said:
Of course if he is so concerned about his LAG image drawing fire then he could tighten up and play the game the way it is supposed to be played = TIGHT.
Click to expand...


Lol. I wasnt worried about my "LAG image drawing fire". I was just wondering what people though the range of the average micro player might be calling this c bet with vs a more agro player. I was playin kinda LAG cause the table was letting me. They were tight passive for the most part. I think the way you're "supposed" to play poker is adjust and exploit your opponents...
 
ChuckTs

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Something to keep in mind is you can't **** these spots up too badly without putting in your whole stack every time or anything. Nobody's exploiting you at 4nl, and as long as you're not putting in massive amounts of money anywhere, the difference in EV is probably not that huge without significant reads (like knowing he floats often, in which case cbetting and bluffcatching turn/riv would be good for example). These spots also come up relatively infrequently, so even making a relatively big mistake here isn't going to hurt you that badly. The spots you should be more worried about messing up are those which occur frequently.

I can't comment on c/c or c/f based on various bet sizes because I don't have first-hand experience with 4nl. It's up to you to figure out what various bet sizes mean. Sometimes an insta-pot bet can mean way more weakness than a 1/4 pot bet. Sometimes it can mean the opposite.
 
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