$4 NLHE Full Ring: Wet board help

[Sil3ntness]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 19/15/4

80039853-1535 - Riviera IX
Holdem No Limit ($0.02/$0.04) Holdem
Sunday 23 Nov 2014 9:47:37 AM
1: Sil3ntness $5.36 (BB AK suited)
2: UFold2MeNow UTG calls for 1 BB
3: ontiltSampsonSimpson (sitting out)
4: duhhhh710 UTG +1 FOLDS
5: amd5775 MP FOLDS
6: Lautreamontt MP +1 FOLDS
7: theouterurbancadet $3.03 Cutoff raises 3x BB
8: JohnyUtahX (Dealer) flat calls 3x BB
9: Gavdar FOLDS

*** BLINDS ***
Gavdar Posts Small Blind $0.02
Sil3ntness Posts Big Blind $0.04

*** PREFLOP ***
Sil3ntness Hole Cards: Ac,Kc (BB)
UFold2MeNow Calls $0.04 (UTG)
theouterurbancadet Raises $0.12 (Cutoff)
JohnyUtahX Calls $0.12 (dealer)
Sil3ntness Raises $0.28
UFold2MeNow Folds
theouterurbancadet Raises $0.44
JohnyUtahX Folds
Sil3ntness Calls $0.16

*** POSTFLOP ***
Community Cards: Ks,Qs,Qd
Sil3ntness Checks
theouterurbancadet Bet $1.00
Sil3ntness Calls $1.00

*** POSTTURN ***
Community Cards: Ks,Qs,Qd,Js
Sil3ntness Checks
theouterurbancadet Checks

*** POSTRIVER ***
Community Cards: Ks,Qs,Qd,Js,4s
Sil3ntness Checks
theouterurbancadet Bet $1.50
Sil3ntness Folds

*** END OF FOLDED GAME ***
theouterurbancadet won $2.89 from Pot 1
theouterurbancadet had $1.50 returned from uncalled Pot 2
*** END OF GAME ***

Can the poker cash game gurus help me out with this hand? The wet board completely stunned me.

BTW villain's carbon HUD stats are

VP: 19
PFR:15
AF: 4.0
Went to showdown: 21 | 33 (Solid stats IMO for full ring) I'm pretty sure villain had me on the flop.

(FLOP) Pocket aces/kings/queens has me beat, any queen on the flop.
(TURN) Now pocket jacks have me beat. A10 has me beat. FLUSH has me beat.
(River) Now a flush REALLY has me beat on the river LOL.

Top pair top kicker looks like garbage on that super wet board. You guys/gals think I should have just folded on the flop? It's only micro stakes, but I felt like the villain definitely knew what he/she was doing.

 

[asdfg123]

i'm not a guru, but.. the most important part of this hand is preflop imo.

first of all, i wouldn't call a 4-bet OOP with AKs. you should either shove or fold here.

but even before that you need to think about why you're 3-betting. are you trying to isolate? are you trying to end the hand right here? what are you going to do against a 4-bet? etc

it's also important to think about the PFR and the 1 caller. what do you think their ranges are? how do they play postflop? what will they do if i 3bet?


but lets just go through the postflop a little to see why it is so important to think about these things more preflop.

on the flop, you hit with top pair. but look:
1) if you don't cbet here, villain will cbet 100% of the time.
2) when this happens, if you call you're burning money. if you fold, you're burning money. both of these moves are bad.
3) but what about a cbet or check-raise? when you do this, you are turning your hand basically into a full-on bluff. this requires you to put even more money into this horrible hand.
4) this move is SLIGHTLY better since it saves your face, and could maybe get you money by scaring your opponent.



these are some of the thoughts that should be running through your head postflop after getting yourself into such a bad situation. you either try and outplay postlop, or try to minimize how much you are going to lose by folding on the flop. sadly, both plays suck and none of this should've happened because you should've shoved or folded preflop to a 4-bet.

 

[youregoodmate]

3 bet more pre. Im fine flatting when he min clicks it back.

On the flop I flat and then fold river.

Not too badly played, but your 3 bet sizing as terrible.

 

[Sil3ntness]

Thanks guys! I definitely screwed up preflop. I showed weakness with my 3 bet. Then I flat called the 4 bet. Then checking postflop out of position was the deal breaker. I should of just folded at the flop when villain bet $1.

Lesson learned! Thanks!

 

[mottotom27]

I should of just folded at the flop when villain bet $1

I'm not sure this is correct. I mean why call 4 bet with AK only to fold when you hit top pair? Were you hoping for a royal flush or something? If you really think that your opponent has QQ/AK+ then you should probably just fold to the 4 bet (even though it is only small). If you think your opponent has a wider range than this then calling is fine but if so you pretty much have to be prepared to call it down when you hit your ace or your king (unless the board gets really ugly like on the turn/river).

I think just raising more pre and then folding to a 4 bet is probably the safest option.

 

[Sil3ntness]

I'm not sure this is correct. I mean why call 4 bet with AK only to fold when you hit top pair? Were you hoping for a royal flush or something? If you really think that your opponent has QQ/AK+ then you should probably just fold to the 4 bet (even though it is only small). If you think your opponent has a wider range than this then calling is fine but if so you pretty much have to be prepared to call it down when you hit your ace or your king (unless the board gets really ugly like on the turn/river).

I think just raising more pre and then folding to a 4 bet is probably the safest option.

I was thinking that I should of folded to the $1 bet because literally TPTK just looks terrible on that flop. Any queen combination has me beat. If villain does have pocket kings or aces I'm still beat.

Definitely my fault on the pre-flop play. I should have 3 bet for a lot more and if villain flat called my 3 bet, I should have turned up the aggression by betting on the flop instead of my weak check.

 

[mottotom27]

I understand that you're scared of the KQQ board. But by folding it means you're basically putting your opponent on a range as strong as AQ+ and QQ+. If you think this, then you probably shouldn't call the min 4 bet for two reasons:

1) You will miss the board 2/3 times and be forced to fold.
2) When you hit and A or K you will likely only get action from better - e.g. on K72 you will win at most a c bet from QQ and AQ but KK and AA will likely win your stack.

It's tempting to call the min 4 bet thinking you're "getting great odds" but in this case you're getting horrible reverse implied odds so it just isn't worth it imo. It's like if you have K-2 in the small blind and several people have limped you are technically getting "correct pot odds" to call but it just isn't worth getting involved with such a marginal hand (unless you're Daniel Negreanu!).

 

[Sil3ntness]

I understand that you're scared of the KQQ board. But by folding it means you're basically putting your opponent on a range as strong as AQ+ and QQ+. If you think this, then you probably shouldn't call the min 4 bet for two reasons:

1) You will miss the board 2/3 times and be forced to fold.
2) When you hit and A or K you will likely only get action from better - e.g. on K72 you will win at most a c bet from QQ and AQ but KK and AA will likely win your stack.

It's tempting to call the min 4 bet thinking you're "getting great odds" but in this case you're getting horrible reverse implied odds so it just isn't worth it imo. It's like if you have K-2 in the small blind and several people have limped you are technically getting "correct pot odds" to call but it just isn't worth getting involved with such a marginal hand (unless you're Daniel Negreanu!).

lol speaking of K2. One MTT, me and another guy had DEEP stacks and I raised by 5 big blinds with my pocket kings and he called me with K4 off suit. He flopped trips on the flop of 44? rainbow can't remember the 3rd flop card, but it was irrelevant. Anyways he shoved and doubled up on me. I had like 1 or 2 BBs after that hand... *facepalm*

Big blind special for you!

 

[mottotom27]

Haha that's an unfortunate hand! You got the money in likely as a big favourite against his range but ran into the top of it. But you should be happy when you see horrible plays like this since in the long run you will profit a lot from these players.

 

[tomnovember]

shove or fold preflop plz. Calling with AK OOP is really bad

 

[cyclone45]

I don't get hero/villian..help?

 

[weldphaser]

Sil3, do you have an idea of what your 3bet sizing should have been? i red you said you should have made it a lot bigger, not a lot, buut certainly bigger. maybe between .42-.48 .

 

[Sil3ntness]

Sil3, do you have an idea of what your 3bet sizing should have been? i red you said you should have made it a lot bigger, not a lot, buut certainly bigger. maybe between .42-.48 .

Yeah I have been working on my 3 bet & 4 bet. I also am trying to play position better. I raised .12 cents with KQo in early position and someone 3 bet me to .40-.50? can't remember so I folded the hand and took only a .12 cent hit. I didn't want to flat call and play KQo out of position.
---

Today I had pocket aces in a cash game. Someone raised .12 and then I re-raised and they folded their hand preflop. I kind of wanted to flat call their raise, but i didn't want to get cracked on the flop.

Three times in less than 15 minutes today I saw two different people slow play their aces (limped in preflop only to get cracked by J9 off suit and some other random two cards that made a straight. I don't get why they keep limping in with AA, AK, QQ, etc. . They are just begging for LAG players to cripple their stacks.

I'd rather take the blinds, limpers, & someone's 3 bet that folds, than end up post flop with 4-5 people trying to steal the pot.

 

[mottotom27]

I raised .12 cents with KQo in early position

Don't! Not for full ring anyway. KQo is a marginal hand when there are still 6-8 people to get through, as the chances are high that someone has a stronger, dominating hand like AQ or AK and you risk losing quite a lot in the hand. In general from EP you should be raising AQ+ and pocket pairs. KQ is a middle position hand.

 

[TheGodson]

I don't mind flatting the 4-bet. Your 3-bet size was small enough so it is okay. I think calling the flop was good too. River is a good fold though. Too many people would do this with QQ+.

I believe KK is most commonly played this way. AA with a spade second. Next is AK or AQ with a spade. QQ for quads lastly. Most people would check the flop and bet turn and river instead of a bet/check/bet line with QQ.

On the flop folding is too weak. His range is really strong, but if he is bluffing I believe he'll shut down for the rest of the hand. Raising isn't good either, because then you're trying to bluff off all the hands you beat and only getting called by the ones that beat you. I do not believe his range has many drawing type hands except for maybe backdoor draws. This means turning your hand into a bluff catcher for at least one street is acceptable with not too much risk.

You said AT has you beat on the turn in your post. If you believe in the possibility of him having AT at any slight reasonable percentage then that would make calling the flop most likely correct. If AT is getting there then AJ is probably there also.