$4 NLHE Full Ring: TPTK gets raised oop on a safe river

rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 25/10/2

Did I play this too passively? I think yes, but please chime in. Villain is 25/10/2.0 who cbets ~85% on pretty much every street (which is high, no?). No other reads.

Merge Network $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $4.15
SB: $4.57
Hero (BB): $6.77
UTG: $3.58
UTG+1: $6.54
UTG+2: $4.00
MP1: $4.08
MP2: $4.00
CO: $3.96

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is BB with A
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K
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2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.14, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.30) 3
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K
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Q
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(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

I flop TPTK w/ a drawy board, but knowing he'll cbet I figured I'd call now stay in the hand as long as the turn isn't too scary.

Turn: ($0.90) 6
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(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $1.02, Hero calls $1.02

I still feel good about my hand here and figured he'd keep betting. Would this have been a good time to check-raise? Well, I didn't, and the new plan was to c/c, and if the river was a blank, I'd fire.

River: ($2.94) 4
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(2 players)

Great, a blank! So I fire away a 1/2 pot valuebet.
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But then....

Hero bets $1.47, UTG+2 raises to $2.54 all in.

Uh oh.
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I'm committed now w/ a $7 pot, so I have to call. Did I mess this hand up? Should I have been more aggressive earlier, even against a fairly aggressive villain?

Btw, I'm about ~75% vs his range assuming he raises preflop w/ { 55+, A9s+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
 
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watchtowel

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Yea I think you were too passive. You could 3bet pf or not I change it about with AK, but you need to raise the flop as the board is too dangerous to slowplay and there are lots of hands that you can get value from. I don't think he has to have a huge hand to shove the river. There isn't a lot of money left compared with the pot so he might be happy just getting the last bit in especially when you haven't looked like you have a strong hand although I think he has you beat. With being so passive you never know where you are in a hand. He could have KJ, a set, AK, aces, KQ but I
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

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Assuming this is over a decent amount of hands....

3bet pre.

As played, I think c/r the flop since you know he's cbetting. That's a drawy board, and there are a lot of bad turn cards.

As played, Same thing as the flop.

As you said, not folding the river, but I think you should be check/calling, since you said he betting every street this way.
 
bgomez89

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+1 to 3betting pre and c/r flop
 
rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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3bet pre.

As played, I think c/r the flop since you know he's cbetting. That's a drawy board, and there are a lot of bad turn cards.

As played, Same thing as the flop.

As you said, not folding the river, but I think you should be check/calling, since you said he betting every street this way.

Any merits do you think of just calling preflop in the bb since I'm going to be OOP on the flop? I also figured that though I'm beating a 10% range, I'm not obliterating it. If he were a tad looser, that would be another story. Maybe I'm wrong though.
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

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Any merits do you think of just calling preflop in the bb since I'm going to be OOP on the flop? I also figured that though I'm beating a 10% range, I'm not obliterating it. If he were a tad looser, that would be another story. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Stack to pot ratio will be lower, which is good for the oop player, since it simplifies decisions.
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

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Also didn't say the main reason that you should 3bet: for value.
 
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watchtowel

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On the other hand you might want to 3bet OOP to take down the pots early rather than play three streets OOP.
 
Stu_Ungar

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3bet preflop for value

do not CR this flop, ther just are not all that many draws in his range.

Lead the flop for value.

Lead the turn as there are more draws he can continue with

Fold the river.

This guy is unlikely to be barreling or raising draws (except OESFDs)

This guy is not aggressive he is a 25/10 the fact that he cbets 85% is down to the fact you have a small sample size on him and he has picked up a few hands.

You do not have 75% equity against his range by the river.

The reason we 3bet preflop is because we are ahead of his opening range and ahead of his 3bet call range, the only thing we are behind is his 4bet range.

We dont want to flat here because there arent all that many Aces and Kings in his range, the vast majority of his range are PPs which are ahead of us but should fold to a 3bet. There are a couple of weaker aces and kings which we can value bet the flop with and maybe bet or C/c the turn but AK is not going to be ahead of his river range.

He is not betting the river with any hand you beat. Do not play the river hoping to chop at best.
 
Stu_Ungar

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On the other hand you might want to 3bet OOP to take down the pots early rather than play three streets OOP.

We dont want to take down pots early with our value hands, we want to extract as much value as is possible. We want to take down pots early with hands like 67s or A6o.

We are not 3betting to make him fold, we are 3betting because he will likely call with hands he shouldn't and we beat most of those hands or will hold overcards which we can barrel with postflop.
 
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watchtowel

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What if a villain doesn't call 3bets and 4bets AA and KK. Against this villain would calling be better? Sorry if I'm going off topic!
 
bgomez89

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What if a villain doesn't call 3bets and 4bets AA and KK. Against this villain would calling be better? Sorry if I'm going off topic!

No because then we can turn AK into a bluff by 3betting(because 22-QQ might fold)
 
rowhousepd

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3bet preflop for value

do not CR this flop, their just are not all that many draws in his range.

Lead the flop for value.

Lead the turn as there are more draws he can continue with

Fold the river.

This guy is unlikely to be barreling or raising draws (except OESFDs)

This guy is not aggressive he is a 25/10 the fact that he cbets 85% is down to the fact you have a small sample size on him and he has picked up a few hands.

You do not have 75% equity against his range by the river.

The reason we 3bet preflop is because we are ahead of his opening range and ahead of his 3bet call range, the only thing we are behind is his 4bet range.

We dont want to flat here because there arent all that many Aces and Kings in his range, the vast majority of his range are PPs which are ahead of us but should fold to a 3bet. There are a couple of weaker aces and kings which we can value bet the flop with and maybe bet or C/c the turn but AK is not going to be ahead of his river range.

He is not betting the river with any hand you beat. Do not play the river hoping to chop at best.

Thanks stu. As always, very helpful! :top:

But explain about why not to check-raise. When the flop hits, since he cbets so much, I assume he's cbetting high on anything that hits (including ok draws) and is reluctantly just checking if it completely misses. So....

Opening range: {22+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo} = top 10%
Continuing range on flop we keep big PP, pairs, 2pair, plus decent draws. That leaves us with maybe {JJ+, 33, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo} ... which is I'm not beating ~56%.

Why wouldn't a check raise be good here? Something like 3.5x his bet size (so ~$1.00), Woudln't that take care of his draws and possibly get him to fold a mid pair? I guess chk-raising was what I initially think would be the better play on the flop ... after which I'd fold to a raise or any big action on the turn.
 
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baudib1

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I think you are beat most of the time but you pretty much have to call because your river bet looks like BS and you are getting great odds.
 
rssurfer54

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This guy is not aggressive he is a 25/10 the fact that he cbets 85% is down to the fact you have a small sample size on him and he has picked up a few hands.

Just wanted to say, I assumed with my post that we had a lot of hands. If this is over 50 hands, I agree, but OP didn't say so I assumed a decent number.
 
ben_rhyno

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If it is in fact 85% cbet then I think this is a clear c/r situation. K high board, we lead on this and he'll fold JJ-99 and worse. If we check he will then bet and we can raise him for value, meaning we gain an extra bet as opposed to leading and making him fold worse hands that will bet the flop when checked to.

Other points, 3-bet pre. c/c river, as played, easy call with the odds you have
 
ben_rhyno

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Thanks stu. As always, very helpful! :top:

But explain about why not to check-raise. When the flop hits, since he cbets so much, I assume he's cbetting high on anything that hits (including ok draws) and is reluctantly just checking if it completely misses. So....

Opening range: {22+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo} = top 10%
Continuing range on flop we keep big PP, pairs, 2pair, plus decent draws. That leaves us with maybe {JJ+, 33, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo} ... which is I'm not beating ~56%.

Why wouldn't a check raise be good here? Something like 3.5x his bet size (so ~$1.00), Woudln't that take care of his draws and possibly get him to fold a mid pair? I guess chk-raising was what I initially think would be the better play on the flop ... after which I'd fold to a raise or any big action on the turn.
We want to be c/raising for value on this flop, if you raise 2.5-3x his bet he probably won't fold a flush draw/JT and you can then lead out on safe turns and c/c potentially dangerous ones.
 
Stu_Ungar

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We want to be c/raising for value on this flop, if you raise 2.5-3x his bet he probably won't fold a flush draw/JT and you can then lead out on safe turns and c/c potentially dangerous ones.

He dosent have many FDs

The K and Q of diamonds are on the board, his non-paired hands are all BW so his FD has to be a BW hand that cant have a K or Q in it.. ATd, AJd thats it 2 combos

CR just over reps your hand

what are you value betting against? AK? chop, KQ? beats you KJ sure but its not KJd KT.. are we getting value form KTo or blowing it away by CR?

AQ? call a CR here?

QJ?

so he beats us with 33 (which he may not even play in EP)

AA QQ KK KQ

JT, its hard to maintain an overall PFR of 10% and play JTo so at best he plays JTs

This board, and his range just dont give us much to value bet against and we probably make him fold most of what we can get some value from by CRing
 
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ben_rhyno

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I just think if he has a worse hand here, but will still cbet the flop, we can c/r profitably because if we lead he folds all worse hands that he may have cbet anyways. If we c/c I don't think he double barrels a Q or a FD, so we may only get 1 street of value here, so get it while we are well ahead imo. Our hand isn't invincible so gaining an extra bet on the flop and taking down the pot isn't exactly bad.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I just think if he has a worse hand here, but will still cbet the flop, we can c/r profitably because if we lead he folds all worse hands that he may have cbet anyways. If we c/c I don't think he double barrels a Q or a FD, so we may only get 1 street of value here, so get it while we are well ahead imo. Our hand isn't invincible so gaining an extra bet on the flop and taking down the pot isn't exactly bad.

This is why we should 3bet and then lead.
 
Stu_Ungar

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This whole notion of raising to "take it down" is bad, we only take it down against hands we were beating at SD anyway.
 
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RVladimiro

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I think that with a PFR of 10, the villains range from UTG+2 is extremely tight since that 10 applies to all positions making it tighter in UTG+2. The 25/10 difference is justified from calling MP and LP imho. With this in mind I think his range is much more JJ+ AK AQ and KQ so imho the only hands we are ahead is are JJ and AQ.

I think that 3betting AK for value would probably define the hand much better preflop. River looks a obvious fold, I can't imagine a bluff shove from a UTG+2 unless he got crazy with AQ given the constant c/c.

Just my .02.
 
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ben_rhyno

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This whole notion of raising to "take it down" is bad, we only take it down against hands we were beating at SD anyway.
Ok, I disagree, no point in arguing it further. I prefer to c/r the flop to get value from hands he c-bets and may continue with such as flush draws, AQ and JTs, that he probably would flat with if you lead or fold them. You prefer to lead and get value that way, but the problem I see is that worse hands might not call.
 
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watchtowel

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Check raise to me normally means better than a pair. Would it be normal to check-raise tptk?
 
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baudib1

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Check raise to me normally means better than a pair. Would it be normal to check-raise tptk?

if you balance your check-raise range and add more value hands instead of nuts/air/draws, then yes.
 
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