$4 NLHE Full Ring: Shove AK on turn?

MasTime

MasTime

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Hi!
I'm very new to poker and new to posting, so here goes...
I'm wondering if I made a good call in this situation:
I'm UTG with AsKc and raise to $0.16
Action folds around to BB who calls
Flop: 2s,8d,Qd
BB checks and I check behind
Turn: Ac
BB checks, I raise to $0.34, BB re-raises to $1.36, I re-raise to $2.04, and BB goes all-in. I called all-in.
I reasoned that the BB also paired the A but I had the better kicker. I also reasoned that if they connected with the flop they would have bet into me.
Was that a good move?
Anyway, just looking for some insight. Thanks!
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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There's some information missing, like the limit and stack sizes but assuming something like .02/.04 with $4.00 stacks I think calling is fine. The only other option is to fold and you can't you can't do that, especially after checking back the turn.

Of course you could be behind, you probably are as Turn check raise bluffs are so rare. You're probably getting something like 3 or 4:1 on the call right? Which means your TPTK only has to be good around 25% of the time to break even. After checking back the turn the range of hands he might play like this goes up and may include weaker aces, or semi bluffing draws or he could just be spazzing out.

Whatever the case, at this point, calling his shove is short money and if you're planning on reloading there's value in just looking him up which many people overlook.

And oh yeah, welcome to Cardschat and good luck at the tables. You might want to start a post in the Introductions section. We're a friendly lot but many of the members might miss this post.
 
MasTime

MasTime

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Thanks for the info about missing information - I will include that next time. I will also post in the introduction area.
So two questions based on your reply:
1) Why is is so bad to fold after checking behind on the flop?
2) Why is a check raise bluff so rare on the turn?
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Thanks for the info about missing information - I will include that next time. I will also post in the introduction area.
So two questions based on your reply:
1) Why is is so bad to fold after checking behind on the flop?
2) Why is a check raise bluff so rare on the turn?

Good questions and it looks like I made a mistake reading your hand. You checked back the flop and raised the turn. That actually does change things as by raising you have made a clear statement that he needs at least a strong ace to win the hand. Now it's just a matter of how often you're TPTK (Top Pair Top Kicker) will be ahead of the range of hands he will shove. Based on that I'd have to say you're not getting the odds to call. Sorry about that.

But let's address your questions as if I hadn't totally botched it up.

1) Why is is so bad to fold after checking behind on the flop?
When you check back the turn you under-represent your hand. That's good, because the only way you win money at showdown is when your opponent pays you off with a second best hand. By checking back, what you are essentially saying is "I have a weak hand", and this becomes exploitable when you actually do. What this means to you is that your made hand becomes more profitable vs range of hands which he might continue with either in error such as weaker aces or weaker pairs, or as a bluff such as drawing hands or total air. By under-repping you're hand you induce your opponent to continue with many hands that you beat, which makes folding more of a mistake. Of course the hands you're behind are still a part of his range but make up a smaller percentage.

Knowing when to call or fold after under repping a strong hand may be the most difficult skill to master in NLH and your decision will be based on many factors such as how the hand played out (have either you or the villain shown strength or weakness?) your opponents tendencies (does he bluff alot?), the pot odds (are you getting 3 or 4 or 8:1 to make the call), and your own table image (do you appear to be someone that will easily let go of a made hand, or someone that will look you up with Ace High). Yuck! It's hard and makes your brain hurt and you will often find yourself getting Value Owned. That's when your correct decision to call based on the information turns out to be the incorrect call in reality.

2) Why are check raise bluffs so rare on the turn?
The long and short of it is that successful bluffs take skill and balls which are both in short supply at the lower limits. A bluff has to complete a story, and the story has to make sense.

Let's take another look at the hand you played and pretend that you followed up on the flop with a Continuation Bet, in other words, you raised preflop representing a strong hand and bet again on the flop stating that you're hand is still strong. The villain calls and the ace comes on the flop. Remember what I said earlier about exploiting weakness? Well, up to this point you haven't shown any. You're opponent has no reason to believe that you don't have an ace. He has no reason to believe that a bluff will work and any successful attempt will be based on either a level of skill you're unlikely to encounter vs. a recreational player, or complete luck. More likely, the checkraise will represent an honest to goodness bonafide hand, maybe TPTK, but more likely 2 pair or better. Most players at this level will just call with their drawing hands.

Oh, I almost forgot. There's one more reason Check raise bluffs are rare on the turn (and more so on the river) is that THEY DON'T WORK. I keep qualifying my statement with "At these limits" or "vs. Recreational Players". Maybe these rules don't apply at the nosebleed levels but they do at the limits I play at. Poker is like quantum mechanics, the laws that govern the very big are not necessarily the ones that govern the very small.

GL new member.
 
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MasTime

MasTime

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That was a fantastic response! Thanks for your time in addressing my questions!
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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You're welcome. Keep 'em coming.
 
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