$4 NLHE Full Ring: Was I right to fold?

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fergy05

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$4 NL HE Full Ring: Was I right to fold?

The game was actually 1cent/2cent, but The smallest choice was 2 cent/4cent.

I have a question about a fold I made that turned out to be a very bad play. I was happy with the flop, but when MP3 made such a huge raise, I got worried. I figured he must have either flopped a set, or had a high pair. My initial though when he made the bet was that he was sitting on pocket Queens, which is why I ended up folding. I was very shocked when I saw the cards he was holding and really kicked myself, however, I do think I made the right play given such a large raise after the flop and my hand was only marginal at that time (top pair, with a K kicker). Please let me know how I should have played this differently.


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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP3: $0.87 (43.5 bb)
fergy05 (CO): $1.44 (72 bb)
BTN: $1.84 (92 bb)
SB: $1.78 (89 bb)
BB: $3.38 (169 bb)
UTG+2: $0.59 (29.5 bb)
MP1: $0.60 (30 bb)
MP2: $0.87 (43.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: fergy05 is CO with Q
diamond.gif
K
club.gif

UTG+2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, fergy05 raises to $0.06, BTN folds, SB calls $0.05, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $0.04, MP3 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.26) Q
heart.gif
9
diamond.gif
5
club.gif
(4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets $0.04, MP3 raises to $0.81 and is all-in, fergy05 folds, SB folds, UTG+2 calls $0.49 and is all-in

Turn: ($1.32) Q
spade.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($1.32) Q
club.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results (listed below in white, highlight to see): $1.32 pot ($0.08 rake)
MP3 showed 5h 6c (a full house, Queens full of Fives) and won $1.24 ($0.65 net)
UTG+2 showed 7c 6d (three of a kind, Queens) and lost (-$0.59 net)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Make your preflop raise bigger with limpers in the pot (at least .10 here).

As played and without a read I think the flop fold is OK but I'd probably call because their stacks are so short.

Next time don't post results. Your hh should end like this:
Flop: ($0.26) Q
heart.gif
9
diamond.gif
5
club.gif
(4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets $0.04, MP3 raises to $0.81 and is all-in, fergy05 ???
 
F

fergy05

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Thanks, even though my hand wasn't a huge hand, you would still recommend a bigger bet? Is that a standard rule? Try to raise about 5X BB if you have a lot of limpers?
 
widowmaker89

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First of all buy in for the whole amount and reload if you go under(there is an auto option)

A good rule of thumb is 3-4BB plus 1 for each limper.

As played I think this is at least a call. I honestly am not worried about MP3 since I doubt he is shoving a set here. Someone else could have a set but its not terribly likely.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Thanks, even though my hand wasn't a huge hand, you would still recommend a bigger bet? Is that a standard rule? Try to raise about 5X BB if you have a lot of limpers?

If you think your hand is good enough to raise I'd always go at least 3x + 1bb per limper. By raising so small you're basically giving these any 2 idiots good odds to call with just about anything. Also if you raise to .10 preflop the pot at the flop would have been .40 and your top pair is a lot easier to call with getting much better odds.

Also as widowmaker said try to play with a full stack at all times. If you have less than a full stack your throwing $$ away when you hit a big hand.
 
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fergy05

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I have heard this advise more than once about playing with a full stack instead of short stacked like I do. The reason I play with a short stack is that I still see myself as a beginner, with a lot to learn. When I have had a full stack (or built up my short stack), inevitably I am put in a position where I think I have a strong hand, but not huge, and some other player goes all in. I call them as I believe I have the better hand, and they end up winning (more times than not this is by flopping their one out). That being the case, I have been playing short stack to minimise my losses in those cases.

Now I see the logic with having a large stack, but given that I am playing micro tables with a lot of players that call anything and go all in with very little in their hands. Add to that the fact that I am still a weak player, should I still be buying in for the full stack, or should I continue to play short stack and get my experience and skill up without putting my whole bankroll in danger?
 
WVHillbilly

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Well the thing is here you're not really a short stack (72bb) so all you're doing is potentially putting yourself in awkward spots with really tough SPR (the preflop pot to the smallest remaining stack). Good SS play is generally done with 20bb and a double-up and leave type game. If you don't want to play that way (they generally play a 9/8/4 ultra tight style) then I'd recommend always having at least a 100bb stack.
 
Steveg1976

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Against one or two short stackers with TPGK I am happily shipping it on the flop and expect to be ahead a lot of the time. It is probably a high variance play but short stackers are so spewy I think it is all right at the micros. What everyone else said about raising and playing with a full stack still apply.

If you do start buying in for 100bb stay away from tables with a lot of players with half stacks or less, imo. they can ship flops and make your life miserable. More than 2 and I won't play or will leave. FWIW.
 
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feitr

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play full stacked, raise way more preflop (at least 14c) and you should never ever fold a hand like TP2ndK on this board at 1c/2c
 
Steveg1976

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play full stacked, raise way more preflop (at least 14c) and you should never ever fold a hand like TP2ndK on this board at 1c/2c

Not never ever but you need a very good reason to fold. Either the board is super coordinated/monotone, you are against 5 other players or villian is a nit comes to mind.
 
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feitr

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Not never ever but you need a very good reason to fold. Either the board is super coordinated/monotone, you are against 5 other players or villian is a nit comes to mind.

I said "on this board" and you won't lose money by stacking off with TPTK sort of hands at micro stakes because players are absolutely terrible. Spew at micros is trying to bluff somebody off of second pair, not calling a shove with TPTK.
 
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bfw0082

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you hit what you were playing, if you weren't going to stick it out with QK, then why play it at all ?

if it was K 3 6, would you fold thinking they had AK ?

I think if you are going to play a hand like QK, you play it.

I would suggest folding these hands, unless you only play to get a straight draw or flush draw, then continue with the safe plays.

when ever you play a hand, win or lose, that results in losing a little, you are doing fine, stick with it.

If crazy raises get you out of a hand where you dont have the nuts, then feel free to fold. It will save you in the long run
 
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EvilEmperor

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Folding wasn't a mistake here because even at these stakes you don't want to be going all in with just one pair hand especially in multiway pot. At 2NL you can wait for strong hands and most times stack someone all day long. Folding top pair is something a lot of people at 2NL are totally incapable of doing so you are ahead of the pack. On that flop in 2NL it would not be uncommon to see player show up with Q5o so you have to respect the betting unless villain shows himself to be really loose and reckless. Too easy to get paid on good hands to mess around in situations like this.
 
Steveg1976

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Folding wasn't a mistake here because even at these stakes you don't want to be going all in with just one pair hand especially in multiway pot. At 2NL you can wait for strong hands and most times stack someone all day long. Folding top pair is something a lot of people at 2NL are totally incapable of doing so you are ahead of the pack. On that flop in 2NL it would not be uncommon to see player show up with Q5o so you have to respect the betting unless villain shows himself to be really loose and reckless. Too easy to get paid on good hands to mess around in situations like this.

If a player is loose enough to show up with Q5o then they could also have any of the other Q's that you beat, so folding would be mistake unless you have a read that they are nitty post flop which is very unlikely. Folding TP is an important skill but doing so to any kind of aggression on a board as uncoordinated is easily exploitable. The maniacs will eat you up unless you just start nut peddling.
 
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fergy05

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It sounds like it is a completely different game to be playing at 2NL as the higher limits. It is getting harder and harder to play properly at this level as everytime it goes to showdown I am seeing nothing but bad hands. Makes me want to play twice as many hands just to get the chance of something off the flop, although I think that is what most of these people are doing, so best to keep to playing properly and hopefully profit from their bad playing.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, biggest 2 things I have gotten from this is to make my preflop raises a lot more aggressive to try and get these hands to fold, and most importantly to learn the opponents at the table.

I am still very nervous about playing full stack as I don't want to burn through my whole bank roll in a couple of bad hands with all in's, but going to give it a try as the arguments for going with a full buyin make a lot of sense.
 
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feitr

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Super micro stakes are 100% about playing ABC poker. You just have to remember that the players are absolutely awful.

So, play a tight and value based game. Don't try to bluff. But if you have a hand like KQ and you hit TP on that board (which lets face it, is a HUGE hand vs a wide range), then you should always go with it. Your focus should be on obtaining thin value, since villain's will have wide preflop ranges and wide calling ranges postflop.

Never feel bad about losing a stack with a hand like TPTK at super micro stakes - i assure you it will be very profitable in the long run. Just don't do stupid stuff like trying to bluff horrible stations.
 
WVHillbilly

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It sounds like it is a completely different game to be playing at 2NL as the higher limits. It is getting harder and harder to play properly at this level as everytime it goes to showdown I am seeing nothing but bad hands. Makes me want to play twice as many hands just to get the chance of something off the flop, although I think that is what most of these people are doing, so best to keep to playing properly and hopefully profit from their bad playing.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, biggest 2 things I have gotten from this is to make my preflop raises a lot more aggressive to try and get these hands to fold, and most importantly to learn the opponents at the table.

I am still very nervous about playing full stack as I don't want to burn through my whole bank roll in a couple of bad hands with all in's, but going to give it a try as the arguments for going with a full buyin make a lot of sense.

You're not raising more to get them to fold, you're raising more because they will call. You want them to make bigger mistakes when you have an equity edge and if you're sticking to solid starting hands and playing more often in position your edge against most of your opponents is pretty huge.

gl
 
lektrikguy

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You might post the previous hands. Did he just lose a big pot to get down to .78? He might be on tilt, or just a really bad player that saw he hit the flop. He might be thinking since he was one off the button that he could pick up the blinds. Since 56 offsuit is not exactly a powerhouse hand I might just chalk it up to a bad player on a losing day.
 
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fergy05

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Unfortunately he had not been at the table long when this hand came up. Needless to say after this hand was done I felt I had a much better read on both of these players and did not respect ANY of their raises from that point on. Neither of them lasted long though, but unfortunately it wasn't myself that got the privilege of acquiring all of their chips.

I guess it is a possibility he had arrived at the table on tilt, but I just put it down to him being an atrocious player. I will keep my eye out for him on a table again so I can figure that one out.
 
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Falian

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I may be re-iterating a few of the posts above but two things you should always keep in mind in this situation:

1. Low stake players (including me for a while) Bluff/Semi-Bluff way to often, you don't realize this until you take risks like you could have above. Then you realize how many people are bluffing at these stakes.

2. The villains are obviously playing like maniacs, I mean who pushes all in after a .04 bet? If they play this aggressive then they would have probably raised pre-flop with pp's.
 
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