$4 NLHE Full Ring: How did i play this hand? what would you have done differently

Sorry about the HH format, i cant find a converter that will convert PKR hands

ok so the table is prety bad, there was about 4 or 5 fishes that i could see were clearly bad,
anyways here it is

Table #51250595 - The Croft
Starting Hand #2390358599
Start time of hand: 28 Jul 2013 20:18:12
Last Hand #2390357228
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: RING
Money Type: real money
Blinds are now $0.02 / $0.04
Button is at seat 10
Seat 1: super0099 - $5.26
Seat 2: Nov4rC - $1.37
Seat 3: Kat444 - $2.60
Seat 4: Tate53 - $2.49
Seat 5: sillymunchie - $3.96
Seat 6: DafeDuck - $2
Seat 7: Iangriff - $4.28
Seat 8: pita65 - $1.50
Seat 9: PokerLord13 - $4 (away from table)
Seat 10: gent1eman1 - $1.39
Shuffling Deck
Moving Button to seat 1
Nov4rC posts small blind ($0.02)
Kat444 posts big blind ($0.04)
pita65 posts $0.04
gent1eman1 posts $0.04
Dealing Cards
Dealing [A s][K c] to sillymunchie
Tate53 folds
sillymunchie raises to $0.12
Iangriff calls $0.12
pita65 folds
gent1eman1 calls $0.12
super0099 folds
Nov4rC folds
Kat444 folds
Pot sizes: $0.46
Dealing Flop [A c][9 s][5 h]
sillymunchie bets $0.30
Iangriff calls $0.30
gent1eman1 folds
Pot sizes: $1.06
Dealing Turn [8 c]
sillymunchie checks
Iangriff bets $0.70
sillymunchie calls $0.70
Pot sizes: $2.46
Dealing River [6 s]
sillymunchie checks
Iangriff bets $1.23
sillymunchie calls $1.23
Pot sizes: $4.92
Taking Rake of $0.49 from pot 1
Iangriff shows [2 s][3 s]
Iangriff has High Card: Ace
sillymunchie shows [A s][K c]
sillymunchie has One Pair: Aces
sillymunchie wins $4.43 with: One Pair: Aces
Seat 1: super0099 - $5.26
Seat 2: Nov4rC - $1.35
Seat 3: Kat444 - $2.56
Seat 4: Tate53 - $2.49
Seat 5: sillymunchie - $6.04
Seat 6: DafeDuck - $2
Seat 7: Iangriff - $1.93
Seat 8: pita65 - $1.46
Seat 9: PokerLord13 - $4
Seat 10: gent1eman1 - $1.27
End of Hand #2390358599

Button ($5.26)
SB ($1.37)
BB ($2.60)
UTG ($2.49)
UTG+1 ($3.96)
MP1 ($4.28)
MP2 ($1.50)
CO ($1.39)

Preflop:
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.12, MP1 calls $0.12, 1 fold, CO calls $0.12, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.46) (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.06) (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.70, UTG+1 calls $0.70

River: ($2.46) (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $1.23, UTG+1 calls $1.23

Total pot: $4.92 | Rake: $0.49

Results below:
http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

- It doesn't show cards but I just copied your 1st post. In any case it is a bit more readable and you can maybe input cards manually?

Bet like a quarter on the flop because there's 2 people in and ideally you wanna keep both in with 2nd best hands. Once CO folds, bomb turn and river, and fold to a raise unless Villain has a history of raising air or worse pairs. You're looking to get stacks in by the river, because vs most people at that level your hand warrants it.

Also, there's 2 extra live BBs posted, bet bigger pre (like .18-.20) to take them down or isolate.

now this is actually the responce i expected and the reason why i posted this hand was because i was trying to consider position

and also that comment that you made about stacks, i was playing for stacks for so long and more often then not when i got the stack i was beaten and the members of CC called me an "Implied odds machine"
i would agree that the fishes are bad but i get fed up of over inflating the pot for them to take the lead on the turn or river and me not even realising it because the pots too big now

so my question would be "what kind of circumstances warrant playing for stacks v pot control which is what has been recommended to me by the cc forum players?"

At NL4 TPTK is a stack hand like 100% of the time. Versus regs you wanna wait for something nutty like a set or top 2 to play for stacks.

I just went and checked my results in 5NL (140k hands), broken down by hand at showdown (detailed) filter in HEM.

Turns out, TPTK wins 52% of the time over 102 hands and is a net loser. Most of these hands are AK.

Meaning, actually arriving to showdown is maybe not that great.

Obviously I might be misplaying this somehow but cursory examination showed a lot of sets/flopped 2 pairs and a few runner runner suckouts by the fish.

LD1977 said:

Turns out, TPTK wins 52% of the time over 102 hands and is a net loser. Most of these hands are AK.

Click to expand...

1) Not a proper sample. I could easily counter that AK is my single most profitable hand overall, but my sample's not any larger.

2) What's your all-in EV with TPTK?

140k hands is a freaking proper sample.


103 hands, 52.4% win

Net: -4.49$, which is -87.18 bb/100

EV diff is further -32.35$ (!!!) so the real situation is even worse.

This does include preflop allins but only a few and EV diff shows that isn't the issue.

LD1977 said:

140k hands is a freaking proper sample.

Click to expand...

102 hands for a given hand type isn't.

Maybe, but unless I am horribly unlucky TPTK is not the money maker at showdown.

Problem is that it wins smaller pots than it loses (especially multiway).

I would love to hear more about this as I am starting to think that I may be finding a leak in my game here. Anyone else have a larger sample size out there on TPTK at showdown in micro stakes? I wish I had my hand history, unfortunately they were fried in my laptop...

LD1977 said:

Problem is that it wins smaller pots than it loses (especially multiway).

Click to expand...

How big do you bet with them multiway?

105

Hero (UTG) ($6.07)
UTG+1 ($5.09)
MP1 ($9.55)
MP2 ($3.44)
MP3 ($5.75)
CO ($4.08)
Button ($4.91)
SB ($5)
BB ($2.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , A
Hero raises to $0.20, 4 folds, CO calls $0.20, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.47) 7 , A , J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.35, CO calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.17) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, CO calls $0.65

River: ($2.47) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.88 (All-In), Hero calls $2.88

Total pot: $8.23 | Rake: $0.41

Results below:
River chk to induce a bluff.

Basically this is typical:
- If he misses he most often folds to a 3rd barrel but if I check he sometimes bluffs
- If he hits whatever miracle he is chasing then it is a stackoff since I find it hard to fold vs a massive fish like this one since they are too stupid to know what is what.

Meaning, showdown sum $$$ is skewed against profit if you run like shit against fish like I do (I mean, runner runner gutshot, really...).

^^ Make your own thread. This isn't the place for your hands.

We are discussing TPTK on showdown in 5NL FR, since Aleksei thinks it is a stack off hand 100% of the time (!) and I think it is not so great so often if it actually sees showdown.

Also, the line I took in this hand is more aggressive than what OP did in his (he checked turn and river to induce bets), which is closer to what Aleksei suggests and in this case he got 2 bets out of the guy.

Unless you can win with TPTK like 65% of the time I don't see how it is a winner when it sees showdown.

well honestly if you run like shit it will skew your perception of the hand somewhat. getting villain to call all 3 with 3rd pair + BD gutter is hugely long-run profitable; though honestly I think a better river line here is to b/f for pot control, because any random 9x (and villain has plenty) made it and we lose tons more money if we allow villain to overbet shove and then bluffcatch.

Important to note: People make 4-straight and 4-flush draws like literally 10 times more often than they do 3flushes and 3straights.

But... yeah I was wrong, it's not a stack hand. At least not FR, which I don't play because it's too goddamn nitty.

Well if I bet and he shoves over it the calling amount is not that high so I don't see a fold.

Yes the 9 got there but why does he call with it? Only A9s and 99 do and 99 only if he is a complete imbecile.
There are also some 2 pairs with Axs which are invisible until river.

The guy is a massive fish (as demonstrated) so I want him to bet if I bet small and he is beaten he may call but I get less money than if he bets out.

This is possibly a FR vs 6max issue as you noted, 3 players make a difference although this kind of fish is probably not endemic to FR

P.S. "Important to note: People make 4-straight and 4-flush draws like literally 10 times more often than they do 3flushes and 3straights." - I don't understand this?

P.P.S. If it isn't clear, I think OP played the hand well.

You are transforming someone else's HA thread into an analysis of your stats with TPTK. That discussion should happen in the cash section in your own thread.

Oh, and learn to fold LD.

ScottishMatt said:

You are transforming someone else's HA thread into an analysis of your stats with TPTK. That discussion should happen in the cash section in your own thread.

Oh, and learn to fold LD.

Click to expand...

Honestly I agree, but by that token I think YOU hero fold a little too much.

Checking river to induce and folding is kinda bad, no?

Yes I need to fold more, but I think my big mistake is actually habitually pushing TPTK too far... I read somewhere that average poker hand at showdown is 2 pairs?

hey i dont mind this in my thread, i wanted to know what i could do differently, and now theres a debate on whether it should be a stack off hand or not,

which is the reason i made this thread about the hand, from what i see here is opponent saying its stack off hand is a 6 max player, which means he will get paid off more then in a FR so for him its stack off.

but the question remains, if my hand isnt a stack off hand, how did i do, given the hand the opponent had, which was 2 3s (a inside straight draw)
could i have extracted more by doing the betting myself,
obv if i know a player isnt going to bet into me the raise has to come from myself
but if opponents are willing to bet into me as a sense of weakness, then im going to get paid off more when they try and shake me off a hand?

is this a correct assessment?

Something like that. Looks like you played the hand fine and managed to extract the maximum. So long as you have solid reasoning for doing what you did then WP.

LD1977 said:

I read somewhere that average poker hand at showdown is 2 pairs?

Click to expand...

vs what kind of player? At what stakes?

Yup. I like betting twice and checking just to be more sure. Some people (make notes of them) almost always bluff river with missed draws while they will fold to the 3rd barrel.

Also in theory I am charging draws but that stops nobody.

Aleksei - Dunno, it is some kind of general statistical observation, I think for FR poker.

Funny I put this in Google and voila! https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/what-average-hand-67387/

kingmunchers said:

hey i dont mind this in my thread, i wanted to know what i could do differently, and now theres a debate on whether it should be a stack off hand or not,

which is the reason i made this thread about the hand, from what i see here is opponent saying its stack off hand is a 6 max player, which means he will get paid off more then in a FR so for him its stack off.

but the question remains, if my hand isnt a stack off hand, how did i do, given the hand the opponent had, which was 2 3s (a inside straight draw)
could i have extracted more by doing the betting myself,
obv if i know a player isnt going to bet into me the raise has to come from myself
but if opponents are willing to bet into me as a sense of weakness, then im going to get paid off more when they try and shake me off a hand?

is this a correct assessment?

Click to expand...

I guess. Generally speaking if a hand isn't a value 3-barrel you can usually get max value out of it by letting one check through -- or else turn it into a bluffcacher.