$4 NLHE Full Ring: Do you raise this river?

Merge - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 99.5 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 6)
MP: 58.5 BB (VPIP: 29.39, PFR: 8.61, 3Bet Preflop: 1.89, Hands: 246)
MP+1: 55.25 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
Hero (CO): 252.75 BB
BTN: 92.5 BB (VPIP: 12.76, PFR: 8.23, 3Bet Preflop: 1.12, Hands: 243)
SB: 102 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 26)
BB: 91.75 BB (VPIP: 17.46, PFR: 1.59, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 63)
UTG: 67.75 BB (VPIP: 23.86, PFR: 17.05, 3Bet Preflop: 10.71, Hands: 88)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6:club: 7:club:

fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, fold, MP+1 calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls 4 BB, fold

Flop: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 7:spade: K:club: Q:heart:
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:
UTG+1 bets 12.5 BB, Hero calls 12.5 BB

River: (37.5 BB, 2 players) T:spade:
UTG+1 bets 18.75 BB, Hero ???

As you only have a sample of 6 hands, he seems tight/passive to me. Just by doing a quick PokerStove, you are way behind his range to start. Again, that is just a quick check.

Many here will question your choice to raise preflop with 67s in the CO? What was your thoughts there? You did have some tightish players behind you.

Also, not cbetting would be challenged as well. Make him pay for trying to chase and hit a gutter. By checking the flop, you missed some value imho.

This would be a fold as must fish don't bluff the river. Some do but as you don't have many hands, I would respect his bet here and fold. Better to give up then pay off his straight.

If it was only one limper pre, I wouldn't mind the ISO. With two limpers I prefer an over-limp since that'll give us better odds since it's rare we get both to fold and we don't flop better that much; as played river is a raise, yeah he has 7x but he pretty much never has AJ and the majority of his range is dumb two pairs

I really do question his preflop raise.

Anyway, I call here and pay him off if he has the goods.

You guys wouldn't punish limpers here in position with a hand that can flop well? Do you guys see how tight the button, SB and BB are? I am almost always raising this hand pre in this spot against these villains. I guess an argument could be made for an over limp but I just hate limping.

DenverDave, you would really consider folding this river?? That legit NEVER crossed my mind. Do you really think he limp called AJ? Remember I only have 6 hands against villain and he only played 1 in which he limped so his PFR of 0 does not mean he limps often. J9 is pretty doubtful too, he hasn't shown himself to be very loose in the 6 hands he has played.

With that said is not cbetting this flop really a mistake? What am I folding out here besides air that beat me, 88, 99? If I cbet this flop any K or Q will call so if I was considering to cbet this flop I would almost always have to double barrel to get any folds. I thought I had enough showdown value to check and keep the pot small in this spot.

Nope, flat call here...

el_magiciann said:

Nope, flat call here...

Click to expand...

Why? You think he has a straight or full house? Only better trips he could have is A7 which is doubtful. His pot sized turn pot is pretty strange and the reason I did not raise but really why would he pot bet on this turn with a now full house after I showed weakness by checking the flop? The only thing that makes sense for potting the turn is J10 as a semi bluff right? If he does that though he is probably not betting the river since he has showdown value? Or do you think he would think I have Qx in my hand that he can bluff me off of?

I would put in a raise here for value as we are most likely to have the best hand here most of the times. The villain could have KQ or 10J or even worse. calling here would be passive and can be used by other villains to bluff you off in future hands played. Hence i would raise.:icon_sunn

lol at the suggestion to fold the river like my god are you serious? Its just an 18 BB raise not a shove.

Anyways yes I would raise the river but only so much that a hand like KQ will pay off. If you raise too much here then you are only going to be called/raised by better or split hands. If he comes over the top we cannot fold because of his stack so that is important to consider before you raise that you are then committed to call his shove.

I won't raise pre but there is not much wrong with your play either.

As for c betting the flop I would bet 40% pot just to get a fold from air. If we get called its not too bad we have 5 outs to considerably improve our hand and a backdoor draw. We can check the turn for pot control if we don't improve hand.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Thinker_145 said:

lol at the suggestion to fold the river like my god are you serious? Its just an 18 BB raise not a shove.

Anyways yes I would raise the river but only so much that a hand like KQ will pay off. If you raise too much here then you are only going to be called/raised by better or split hands. If he comes over the top we cannot fold because of his stack so that is important to consider before you raise that you are then committed to call his shove.

I won't raise pre but there is not much wrong with your play either.

As for c betting the flop I would bet 40% pot just to get a fold from air. If we get called its not too bad we have 5 outs to considerably improve our hand and a backdoor draw. We can check the turn for pot control if we don't improve hand.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Wouldn't we rather induce bets from air instead of folding them out ?

IPlay said:

Wouldn't we rather induce bets from air instead of folding them out ?

Click to expand...

No because we don't want someone to hit a bigger pair on the turn.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Thinker_145 said:

No because we don't want someone to hit a bigger pair on the turn.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

The only turn cards that I should be worried about making a bigger pair are 10, J, A and those are not coming that often. I still prefer my flop check. The cbet is pointless because nothing I am beating is calling and I have showdown value.

Also, lets ignore the flop, I like my preflop and flop play. Lets focus on the pot sized turn bet followed by a half pot river bet.

the check on the flop made it a whole lot harder to understand him, so i would just call in the river and hope i'm good

i'd rather take 67 multiway pre flop as opposed to iso-ing coz it plays trash heads up, anyway it's an easy raise on the river make it about .40-50 if he comes over the top then we have to just pass on it, but yeah i think he's bet calling hands like KQ/K10 and maybe some other decent kings.

Does everyone in this thread cbet 100% of flops or something?

I thought not cbetting super dry flops when you have a hand with decent showdown value was standard play. I would like to hear what more experienced members think about this.

thatgreekdude said:

i'd rather take 67 multiway pre flop as opposed to iso-ing coz it plays trash heads up, anyway it's an easy raise on the river make it about .40-50 if he comes over the top then we have to just pass on it, but yeah i think he's bet calling hands like KQ/K10 and maybe some other decent kings.

Click to expand...

Agree'd, but I would say my raise was more of a bluff since I knew the villains were weak and I would have position post flop.

No I don't c bet 100% but I probably always bet bottom pair IP against unknown.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Thinker_145 said:

No I don't c bet 100% but I probably always bet bottom pair IP against unknown.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Bet for value or as a bluff?

It would have to be a bluff and I don't understand bluffing on this flop when we have showdown value.

IPlay said:

Bet for value or as a bluff?

It would have to be a bluff and I don't understand bluffing on this flop when we have showdown value.

Click to expand...

First to say is that I would overlimp. Why not see a multiway flop IP with a guy that looks like a nit and a fish? Chances are I could get more money from the fish if I hit than from the nit. 67s is not a hand that you would ISO but try to see flops cheap.
As played.
I would call it semibluffing on the flop since we have 6 outs. 3 for 2 pairs, 2 for trips, 1 for the backdraw. And we are against a guy who looks like a nit. C-betting as a bluff is a must and try to take the pot down there. Also I would reraise the turn for value. This is 4NL and value land. If he wanna call he will. There are more draws to catch there than a second pair. If you think is is thinking too much about what you might have I think you are wrong. With top pair ppl at this lvl will not let go unless they are dead. He could turn out wit things like AJ or J9s and you will be the laugh of the table on the river.
On the river because we played poor I would just call.

IPlay said:

Bet for value or as a bluff?

It would have to be a bluff and I don't understand bluffing on this flop when we have showdown value.

Click to expand...

Its a semi bluff.

swingro said:

First to say is that I would overlimp. Why not see a multiway flop IP with a guy that looks like a nit and a fish? Chances are I could get more money from the fish if I hit than from the nit. 67s is not a hand that you would ISO but try to see flops cheap.
As played.
I would call it semibluffing on the flop since we have 6 outs. 3 for 2 pairs, 2 for trips, 1 for the backdraw. And we are against a guy who looks like a nit. C-betting as a bluff is a must and try to take the pot down there. Also I would reraise the turn for value. This is 4NL and value land. If he wanna call he will. There are more draws to catch there than a second pair. If you think is is thinking too much about what you might have I think you are wrong. With top pair ppl at this lvl will not let go unless they are dead. He could turn out wit things like AJ or J9s and you will be the laugh of the table on the river.
On the river because we played poor I would just call.

Click to expand...

Semi bluff, fair enough. Hard to call someone you have 6 hands against a NIT especially since he played 1 and he limped in. I don't think I would say its a must to cbet here. I agree a turn raise would of been nice and I for sure planned on it until he pot bet which really polarized his range to nuts or bluffs so AP raising this turn is not optimal. Hard to say we played this hand poorly when I got two streets of value out of the A high hand villain bluffed with. I also disagree about just calling, I think we should always raise this river as played(the only major mistake in the hand).

IPlay said:

You guys wouldn't punish limpers here in position with a hand that can flop well? Do you guys see how tight the button, SB and BB are? I am almost always raising this hand pre in this spot against these villains. I guess an argument could be made for an over limp

Click to expand...

Over limp is deff better than a raise. When we hit we hit middle/bottom pair weak kicker, because we are against two fish instead of one there's a greater chance that one of them will have hit a piece of the board; and fish like to peel.

. Good string this. In my experince at these stakes anyone who limp calls up to 5 bb has a hand that just wants to see a flop. Normally either a small pair 22 to 55 or some sort of broadway suited combo. I wouldnt rule out AJ os but think it less likely than Kj kt qj at and J9 maybe at a push. You cant rule it out as we know so little about the villian. The check on the flop is in my opinion a mistake here. I think i saw you say it was a dry flop. This does not fit dry in my view. Anytime there are two broadway cards on the flop then anyone playind two cards above a ten has at least a gut shot. This is why it is a mistake for you to check as you are giving a free card to a likely gutshot and any low pair could hit. You have repped a good hand by raising and a k should hit your range so bet it and get rid of trash that might get lucky with a free card.
and you are handing him the initiative. His full pot turn bet is a legitiment attemt to take down the pot as you in effect are saying you have little by checking. We also by checking have missed the information to be gleaned by seeing his reply. We are still in the dark about his hand.
Ok so then your perfect card arrives on the turn. I would argue you are almost certainly ahead now and should raise now on the turn not just call..
The arrival of the ten complicates matters by allowing AJ and J9 to beat you. As we think these hands unlikely we are never folding here as there are a ton of 2 pair combos that we beat that can think they are betting for value. You can just call here if youwant too play low variance poker but everything points to 2 pair and a raise should get called by any k 2 pair combo.

The raise preflop in position with suited connectors is perfectly fine. All we can hope for is that a few microstakes limpers will tag along and then we can smash and stack them. You raised, they carried along, and now you have three 7's and your contemplating calling? You have the mindset of a 1/2 player online and while that's good, you need to understand the game your playing. The bottom line is if you shoved here your liable to get snapped by worse. Its just a fact. Raising for value on the end is absolutely necessary and I wouldn't even mind a bluffy over shove.

IPlay said:

Does everyone in this thread cbet 100% of flops or something?

I thought not cbetting super dry flops when you have a hand with decent showdown value was standard play. I would like to hear what more experienced members think about this.

Click to expand...

You could have just led at the flop and then checked back turn, your essentially paying for 2 cards with one bet, you can control the size of the pot with position if necessary, and you can 2barrel 6's, 7's, and clubs on the turn. That's the case for betting the flop. Do I think checking okay? Sure, but betting is preferable.