$4 NLHE Full Ring: Deep staked, raise with 99/TT and get raised, best move?

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pat3392

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poker stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BB: $2.00
Hero (UTG): $5.00
UTG+1: $0.75
UTG+2: $1.58
MP1: $1.58
MP2: $0.77
CO: $9.24
BTN: $5.15
SB: $1.07

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with T:heart: T:club:
Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.08, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.22, 3 folds, Hero?


Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players

MP2: $5.58
CO: $4.81
BTN: $2.26
SB: $4.27
BB: $2.89
UTG: $3.09
Hero (UTG+1): $5.00
MP1: $4.11

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG+1 with 9:spade: 9:club:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.22, BTN calls $0.22, 2 folds, Hero ?


I'm really clueless as to how to play in these sort of spots
 
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orangepeeleo

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Not exactly the expert on deep stack play and i dont know your personal situ, you could be awesome 100bb deep and are just trying to learn how to play deeper for all i know, but heres my 2c's.

It all depends on stats dude, what were the stats of both CO's in those hands?

And if you dont like playing in those spots then avoid them by tightening up in EP, IMO no-one will ever call you a bad player for having a nit range UTG @ FR and its for this reason, hands like that are a pig to play oop to a 3bet or loads of callers (which 2nl inevitably brings!), you could maybe justify a call purely because stacks are deep, but then you get into fit or fold territory which nobody likes, or maybe depending on the CO + BTNs stats in the 2nd hand you could get fancy and squeeze :D

Hope that helps, if i had stats i could make a better judgement i think, top tip for the future, include stats! :)
 
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pat3392

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Not exactly the expert on deep stack play and i dont know your personal situ, you could be awesome 100bb deep and are just trying to learn how to play deeper for all i know, but heres my 2c's.

It all depends on stats dude, what were the stats of both CO's in those hands?

And if you dont like playing in those spots then avoid them by tightening up in EP, IMO no-one will ever call you a bad player for having a nit range UTG @ FR and its for this reason, hands like that are a pig to play oop to a 3bet or loads of callers (which 2nl inevitably brings!), you could maybe justify a call purely because stacks are deep, but then you get into fit or fold territory which nobody likes, or maybe depending on the CO + BTNs stats in the 2nd hand you could get fancy and squeeze :D

Hope that helps, if i had stats i could make a better judgement i think, top tip for the future, include stats! :)

I'm looking for general advice, not these specific spots. How would the stats of villain effect how you play here? Could you give me so general guide lines please(fairly new to the HUD)
 
LuckyChippy

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We'll assume you're always OOP and it's 200BB's deep?

As a standard you can call and play a flop as you're deep but you need different plans depending on his 3-bet %. If he's a nit then we're set mining/playing against AK. If his range is wider we can play poker and call but I wouldn't 4-bet a whole lot unless he's terrible and likely to call/shove worse.

PP's are hard to play OOP but 88+ are hands that can make top or second pair by the river a fair amount of time, and thus a lot easier. TT is definitely strong enough to play OOP. You need to be able to hand read well, put him on a range, and play it.

Say he 3-bets around 3% you want to call to set mine this deep, plus sometimes on certain flops you can play and end up good against AK/Q.

If he starts getting to around 7%, we can call and stove says we're close to flipping. If it's higher we can call and we're doing well against his range.

Other factors you need to take into account is if he does this with a polarised range, meaning we can flat more as it's not completely value like AJs and has some SC's in there. Also that you're range is presumably quite strong, which makes his range quite strong if it isn't polarised.


What do you open UTG say? It might help me better knowing what your range looks like from EP.
 
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pat3392

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We'll assume you're always OOP and it's 200BB's deep?

As a standard you can call and play a flop as you're deep but you need different plans depending on his 3-bet %. If he's a nit then we're set mining/playing against AK. If his range is wider we can play poker and call but I wouldn't 4-bet a whole lot unless he's terrible and likely to call/shove worse.

PP's are hard to play OOP but 88+ are hands that can make top or second pair by the river a fair amount of time, and thus a lot easier. TT is definitely strong enough to play OOP. You need to be able to hand read well, put him on a range, and play it.

Say he 3-bets around 3% you want to call to set mine this deep, plus sometimes on certain flops you can play and end up good against AK/Q.

If he starts getting to around 7%, we can call and stove says we're close to flipping. If it's higher we can call and we're doing well against his range.

Other factors you need to take into account is if he does this with a polarised range, meaning we can flat more as it's not completely value like AJs and has some SC's in there. Also that you're range is presumably quite strong, which makes his range quite strong if it isn't polarised.


What do you open UTG say? It might help me better knowing what your range looks like from EP.

Hmm ok, great post :)

Because of the low stakes I've been playing at, I wouldn't consistently see the same players enough to add a 3-bet statistic. Would I be able to draw some rough conclusions on their 3-bet % by looking at their VPIP/PFR/AF? Or don't they correlate enough to do so

Depending on the table I'm playing at, but at these types of cash games(incredibly loose spewy players) I open a wide range:

88+
KQo/s
KJs
ATs
AJ+

However, I'm not sure if these players are observant enough to notice this.
 
WVHillbilly

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When you raise UTG at a FR table and you get 3bet by a standard TAGish player you can fold 99/TT at least 100bb deep. When you get deep enough set mining becomes an option but you can't go throwing a bunch of money in without improving postflop.
 
c9h13no3

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Now that I have more time to elaborate on my "no"....

Lets take this example: You're out of position with 22, and our opponent has 3-bet us with a range of AT+, KJ+, QJ, JTs and we're 100 big blinds deep.

49% { ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }
51% { 22 }

Our preflop equity is 51%, but its obviously a losing play. All the money doesn't go in preflop, and smallish pairs flop very poorly. Now make the stacks 200+ bb's deep, and things get really really bad.

In the posted hands, I'm sorta okay with calling to set mine as long as villain is 3-betting his typical tiny range of QQ+, AK. Otherwise, I don't think we can set mine correctly OOP getting ~21:1.


I also think the 12:1 set-mine rule is absolutely false.
 
LuckyChippy

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Now that I have more time to elaborate on my "no"....

Lets take this example: You're out of position with 22, and our opponent has 3-bet us with a range of AT+, KJ+, QJ, JTs and we're 100 big blinds deep.

49% { ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }
51% { 22 }

Our preflop equity is 51%, but its obviously a losing play. All the money doesn't go in preflop, and smallish pairs flop very poorly. Now make the stacks 200+ bb's deep, and things get really really bad.

In the posted hands, I'm sorta okay with calling to set mine as long as villain is 3-betting his typical tiny range of QQ+, AK. Otherwise, I don't think we can set mine correctly OOP getting ~21:1.


I also think the 12:1 set-mine rule is absolutely false.

You don't think TT is any different to 22?

I agree the 12:1 rule is false, we need at least 15:1 and prefer 20:1. Changing depending on position, 3-bet range etc.
 
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orangepeeleo

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You don't think TT is any different to 22?

I agree the 12:1 rule is false, we need at least 15:1 and prefer 20:1. Changing depending on position, 3-bet range etc.

I've started to errr more towards calling with larger implied, used to even be happy with 10:1 when i first started out but nowadays i like to win huge stacks when i do flop good or not see a flop at all.
 
c9h13no3

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You don't think TT is any different to 22?
Yeah, its different, but not by as much as you might think.

How many T's does our opponent have in his 3-betting range? Not many. 3-betting ranges mostly consist of unpaired cards that are J or higher, and pairs TT+. So the difference between 22 and 99 in this spot is pretty insignificant.

That's why low pairs and dominated broadways are reverse implied odds hands. If the flop comes out 224 in a 3-bet pot, the only hands that are going to be giving 99 action are bigger pairs (and the random semi-bluffing overs that have 24% equity against us). When the flop comes out 22K, the only hands that are going to be giving KJ action are KQ, AK, AA, and KK.

Being in reverse implied odds spots isn't as bad when you're in position, because you can control the pot size more to your liking. But OOP, you need a really strong hand to continue with, and 99/TT/KJ type stuff doesn't qualify.
 
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