$4 NLHE Full Ring: Call UTG 4 bet shove from BB w/ 1010?

joe steady

joe steady

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$4 NL HE Full Ring: Call UTG 4 bet shove from BB w/ 1010?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 8/6/4

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 8/6/4

Stacks:
* BTN with $2.39
* SB with $0.60
* BB with $1.88
* UTG with $2.38
* UTG+1 with $1.78
* MP1 with $1.34
* MP2 with $1.84
* CO with $2.00
hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to BB:T♦ T♣
* * Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
* * UTG raises to $0.08
* * 6 players fold.
* * Hero raises to $0.14
* * UTG raises to $2.38, and is all in
* * Hero calls [$1.74] [ all-in ]


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I had been playing this guy for about an hour and he was tight as hell. My thought process was like this: I knew preflop he was at least JJ+ or AQ+, decided to raise to see where I was. If he re-raised another $.20 I would have put him on a big pp and just called, if I hit my set great if not, done. But when he shoved I was 98% sure he had AK. I'm ahead 54% to 45%. Too close to make that call? Did I make a mistake?
 
joe steady

joe steady

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btw I was playing .01/.02 NLHE, messed up with the hand converter stakes thing, sorry.
 
slycbnew

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In a game w loose passive players galore, do we really want to 3bet TT against an utg supernit, and then call his 4bet all in? Is this really a great opportunity for us?

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate your reasoning, but I don't see it as a great opportunity relative to other opportunities likely to present themselves at this limit - why flip in this spot (and that's assuming our read is good - supernits like to get it in the middle when they have the nuts, since they're playing so few hands, and are not as likely to shove AK imo - but I could def be wrong here)...
 
joe steady

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In a game w loose passive players galore, do we really want to 3bet TT against an utg supernit, and then call his 4bet all in? Is this really a great opportunity for us?
Yeah, I hear you - my other thought process was "fold and go back to stealing his blinds," but I thought maybe I had an opportunity I should capitalize on.
 
KardKlub

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Your raise is super gay (no offence). he only needs to call 6 with atc and still have position on you.

With his stats im either calling or folding. Calling being the superior play. save bluffing utg raisers to those who are a bit more laggy, you just don't want to be 4 bet with 10 10.
 
joe steady

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Your raise is super gay (no offence). he only needs to call 6 with atc and still have position on you.
None taken, and good point. Having had a little more time to think about it, I agree, I should have just called.
 
Pascal-lf

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Just curious why you would put him on AK? If he is super tight then surely he'd want to see a flop with a drawing hand for as cheap as possible, which you gave him the option to do, as opposed to risk it all on a draw?

Him pushing suggests to me a very strong hand, i.e. KK/AA.
 
joe steady

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He seemed to get real defensive and overbet when he had broadway-type hands, almost like he wanted to take the pot down right away - maybe he knew he had a good hand but didn't know what to do with it? His whole style was kinda scared/defensive, idk, I'm going to look up his stats later and see if there's something I should have noticed.
 
slycbnew

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Just curious why you would put him on AK? If he is super tight then surely he'd want to see a flop with a drawing hand for as cheap as possible, which you gave him the option to do, as opposed to risk it all on a draw?

Him pushing suggests to me a very strong hand, i.e. KK/AA.

You want to figure out if any specific Villain fits this type or not, but alot of players are more likely to simply shove AK, with which they'd really rather not get a caller, than KK+, with which they do want action. I agree w OP that this shove is frequently weaker than KK+, though I'm not sure it applies to supernits.

Completely agree w KardKlub on calling pf in this spot.
 
Pascal-lf

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Fair enough :)

The way I was looking at it is - if he raises all in, knowing that Hero has a strong hand, and with Villain being a tight player, then he would be hoping for a call pre-flop where he is ahead; he's shown a willingness to commit all his money into that hand.

However, I fully appreciate the way you looked at it too, and with Hero saying that he likes to take the pot down straight away with Broadway type hands then I'd be inclined to agree :)
 
tenbob

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You want to figure out if any specific Villain fits this type or not, but alot of players are more likely to simply shove AK, with which they'd really rather not get a caller, than KK+, with which they do want action. I agree w OP that this shove is frequently weaker than KK+, though I'm not sure it applies to supernits.

Completely agree w KardKlub on calling pf in this spot.

Call pre-flop.

We HAVE to include QQ+ in his range. Its the super-micro's, and we have 3 bet, and without doubt shoving big pairs is extremly profitable, especially considering the how light a lot of players will call.
 
slycbnew

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Call pre-flop.

We HAVE to include QQ+ in his range. Its the super-micro's, and we have 3 bet, and without doubt shoving big pairs is extremly profitable, especially considering the how light a lot of players will call.

I agree w your logic, and shove big pairs alot against non-regs cuz I think some players think it looks like AK and expect to get called by worse alot - but I'm not sure that level of thinking applies to most players. I see ss's shoving big pairs, and some medium stacks, but mostly see KK+ being 4bet to 3x the 3bet give or take, and frequently see AK/AQ being shoved like this.

Regardless, I usually want to see villain showdown one of his shoved hands before I start acting on this assumption, and an utg supernit isn't a great candidate imo.
 
joe steady

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You guys rule, thanks for all the input. If anyone wants me to post the results let me know.
 
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