$4 NLHE Full Ring: AA flops set, gets raised on flop

Merge - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+2: 31.5 BB (VPIP: 29.63, PFR: 2.47, 3Bet Preflop: 1.72, hands: 162)
CO: 105.75 BB (VPIP: 32.61, PFR: 20.65, 3Bet Preflop: 6.72, Hands: 370)
BTN: 122 BB (VPIP: 46.43, PFR: 3.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
SB: 30.25 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
BB: 336 BB (VPIP: 24.14, PFR: 12.93, 3Bet Preflop: 2.94, Hands: 117)
UTG: 55 BB (VPIP: 27.18, PFR: 9.33, 3Bet Preflop: 1.81, Hands: 497)
UTG+1: 103 BB (VPIP: 20.87, PFR: 20.39, 3Bet Preflop: 14.93, Hands: 207)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.68, PFR: 10.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 75)
Hero (MP+1): 138.25 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has and the Ace of diamonds... lol

fold, fold, MP calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, fold, MP calls 3 BB

Flop: (13.5 BB, 3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets 6.75 BB, BTN raises to 13.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 20.25 BB, BTN calls 6.75 BB

Turn: (54 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 54 BB, Hero calls 54 BB

River: (162 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 43.75 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 43.75 BB

MY thinking is that I should have jammed after his raise on the flop... what do you think? I was thinking that 2-pair/worse sets would call...

just tell me how badly I played this. Again, I thought that only part of the time he has a flush, the rest of the time it's 2-pair or sets... what do y'all think? Or do we just give up when the 3rd club hits?

You played it fine. Yes, you could have jammed it on the flop after his raise. This is for the maximum value since once he missed his draws. Villain could be on straight and flush draw on this one.

Another option is to flat call his raise on the flop and jam on the turn if he misses. Anyway, there is no way that we could fold this hand.

You don't think I could have folded? at any point?

;_; this hand makes me so sad.

It may seem like overkill to shove over the top with the nuts, but in this case I'd do it. I despise flush draws trying to crack my big pairs/flopped sets. You're stacking his non-draw hands like bottom and middle sets, and AK/AQ if he has the case ace and top kicker, anyway.

It's a shame you so rarely get flops you can just slowplay without fear of getting outdrawn. Here, your hand is actually very vulnerable to something like 5 7 of clubs, or even the bare flush draw.

Your preflop raise sucks. Your c-bet size sucks . Than you make a minraise over his reraise. It is like you were asking to get burned.

swingro said:

Your preflop raise sucks. Your c-bet size sucks . Than you make a minraise over his reraise. It is like you were asking to get burned.

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Well that was obnoxious.

A 4x raise was fine as was you're CB but your 4bet was a little weak, I think he was getting about 8:1? You never want a FD to fold (seriously, never!) but you do want to get as much money into the pot as you can before he (hopefully) bricks out on the river. Of course you don't know that he's drawing but there really isn't much in his range that would fold to a larger bet, so bet larger. You might get AK-AQ to drop out sometimes but I think targeting the flopped sets and flush draws is more profitable.

So how do we get him pot committed on the turn? If you pot the flop and he calls, the pot on the turn will be 81bb's. He will have about 78bb's behind and will be getting a little better than 2:1 to call and he probably will.

As it played out, you bet small and he called (like you wanted him to) The flush draw comes on the turn, you check and he bets big, YUCK! You can no longer bet your aces for value. If he's bluffing he'll fold to any raise and if he's betting for value (which he probably is) you need to fill up. You're not getting the odds to chase and I don't think he's bluffing. If you call the turn and nothing changes on the river you have to call that too. Here's your chance to make a big league play. Fold and save yourself a buy-in.

Four Dogs said:

Well that was obnoxious.

A 4x raise was fine as was you're CB .

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I do not agree here a all. This is 4NL and look at the villains left to act preflop. Loose passive calling stations. I am surprised that he had only 2 callers with that small raise pre. Than half of the pot on the flop with a flush draw, gutshot or straight draw and 2 calling stations drooling? Isn't this about getting value?

swingro said:

I do not agree here a all. This is 4NL and look at the villains left to act preflop. Loose passive calling stations. I am surprised that he had only 2 callers with that small raise pre. Than half of the pot on the flop with a flush draw, gutshot or straight draw and 2 calling stations drooling? Isn't this about getting value?

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4x is my standard open with any hand and one caller so IMO it was fine. My objection came more from your use of the word "suck" which struck me as more an attempt to demean and insult than instruct. Am I wrong about that?

Four Dogs said:

4x is my standard open with any hand and one caller so IMO it was fine. My objection came more from your use of the word "suck" which struck me as more an attempt to demean and insult than instruct. Am I wrong about that?

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Didn't ment it that way. Guy just wanted someone to tell him how bad he played.

swingro said:

Didn't ment it that way. Guy just wanted someone to tell him how bad he played.

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Well it's fine to give your opinion but you have to be careful about how you phrase it. Even if he didn't take it as an insult, the use of words like "suck" imply that the way he played the hand is so bad that any experienced player would have issue with it, while in fact it's pretty close to standard. He's going to wonder "if raising 4x with 1 limper is so bad a play that it actually "sucks" then what is the correct size to raise? 5x, 6x, 20x?". To which you reply with authority and some evidence to back it up that the correct answer is???

Go ahead, your turn.

I am not sure if you are ironic or not because English is not my native language.
I can put down my database from playing 2NL and 5NL as evidence as I did my challenge on the Challenge forum. "standard" do not apply at these lvls. An yes 5x or even 6x with premium hands against people that do not fold at these lvls is the right thing to do because we get a lot more value.
I am bad at other things but not at straightforward play where is about value.
If that is not enough I can backup with the book written by the biggest winner of all times at these lvls, Blackrain79.

So Blackrain79 says that raising to 4x with AA sucks? I'd be interested in reading that.

Four Dogs said:

So Blackrain79 says that raising to 4x with AA sucks? I'd be interested in reading that.

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No he didn't said that. I said that and i am not gonna apologise if that is what you want from me.

swingro said:

No he didn't said that. I said that and i am not gonna apologise if that is what you want from me.

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No, I don't want you to apologize and I accept that you're lack of proficiency in english may have contributed to the seemingly trollish tone to your original post.

I also doubt that the

Guy just wanted someone to tell him how bad he played

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More likely he wanted to know what, if anything he did wrong, why it was wrong, and what he might do to improve. Your reply offered none of that.

Now, maybe we can get back on track. You seem to have some pretty strong opinions about pre-flop bet sizing. You may even have something of value to contribute on the subject and I for one would be very interested to hear it. No sarcasm intended.

Four Dogs said:

No, I don't want you to apologize and I accept that you're lack of proficiency in english may have contributed to the seemingly trollish tone to your original post.

I also doubt that the


More likely he wanted to know what, if anything he did wrong, why it was wrong, and what he might do to improve. Your reply offered none of that.

Now, maybe we can get back on track. You seem to have some pretty strong opinions about pre-flop bet sizing. You may even have something of value to contribute on the subject and I for one would be very interested to hear it. No sarcasm intended.

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Well now. Than check my challenge on the "Brag, beats and challenges" thread.
It is named "From 2NL to Supernova" I have lots of hands where I went out of my way with the preflop betsize at 2NL and 5NL and I think I was almost never wrong. These lvls are a circus. And if the tables are full of Loose passive ones, raising hard is the best option. Standard does not apply at all. If most of the time they do not fold to 5x or 6x or even higher(I raised limpers up to 11BBs with aces and they called), what is correct? To raise to 4BB to ISO or higher. And I play 6-max. At FR middle position with a horde of fish left to act I belive it is burning money raising that small to isolate someone.

swingro said:

Well now. Than check my challenge on the "Brag, beats and challenges" thread.
It is named "From 2NL to Supernova" I have lots of hands where I went out of my way with the preflop betsize at 2NL and 5NL and I think I was almost never wrong. These lvls are a circus. And if the tables are full of Loose passive ones, raising hard is the best option. Standard does not apply at all. If most of the time they do not fold to 5x or 6x or even higher(I raised limpers up to 11BBs with aces and they called), what is correct? To raise to 4BB to ISO or higher. And I play 6-max. At FR middle position with a horde of fish left to act I belive it is burning money raising that small to isolate someone.

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I totally agree. I am absolutely not a fan of the min 3-bet on the flop by OP on potential draw heavy boards like this one. Maybe if it was a dry board like A95 rainbow (or something like that), I can understand the min 3-bet. But like swingro said, you have to make these people pay dearly to see their draws through. You're just giving them odds to call even though you do want a call and want them to keep putting in chips.

Still though, not a fan of the min 3-bet in most situations on the flop.

swingro said:

Well now. Than check my challenge on the "Brag, beats and challenges" thread.
It is named "From 2NL to Supernova".

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I will.

woa....

yea 4x is fine as far as I'm concerned. 3x BB + 1bb for every limper and + 1bb if in EP. It's been working so far.

min raising sucks? I see that. and c-bet sucks... ok. Maybe I could have bet more.... why cbet more though? we are looking for calls, and not many hands can call us here...wouldn't a smaller bet induce more calls? rag aces, reluctant pocket queens, etc... straight draws, flush draws...

then on the flop, definitely raise.... and definitely raise more...

The hands that would raise a flop bet would probably call an all-in... most would, anyway. It's a bad habit I have to just raise min, but these situations come up so rarely, I didnt know how to act. It was stupid

Thanks for the feedback everyone, it's been helpful.

teh_colonel_saigon said:

woa....

yea 4x is fine as far as I'm concerned. 3x BB + 1bb for every limper and + 1bb if in EP. It's been working so far.

min raising sucks? I see that. and c-bet sucks... ok. Maybe I could have bet more.... why cbet more though? we are looking for calls, and not many hands can call us here...wouldn't a smaller bet induce more calls? rag aces, reluctant pocket queens, etc... straight draws, flush draws...

then on the flop, definitely raise.... and definitely raise more...

The hands that would raise a flop bet would probably call an all-in... most would, anyway. It's a bad habit I have to just raise min, but these situations come up so rarely, I didnt know how to act. It was stupid

Thanks for the feedback everyone, it's been helpful.

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Based on the information available the Cbet was fine, but once he raised you, clicking it back was less than optimal. Why? He most likely has a set or a draw or maybe AK-AQ. Any of which might decide to back off if you 4 bet and they don't like what they see on the turn. You want to build the pot as much as possible as early as possible for two reasons. The first is that by building the pot it becomes easier for you to get his entire stack in by the river. He becomes invested in the pot and is likely to feel committed to calling and two, if he is willing to shut it down to a scare card (another club?) on the turn or river then you need to make hay while the sun still shines. a case might be made that you should just shove the flop and at this limit it might actually be the best play, but without some specific read on the villain I'm tempted to just pot it and try to get it in on the turn.

OK thanks... 4-bet pot to make him pot commited, never fold on the turn. That makes sense.

Thanks for the help/harsh criticism all!

teh_colonel_saigon said:

OK thanks... 4-bet pot to make him pot commited, never fold on the turn. That makes sense.

Thanks for the help/harsh criticism all!

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Whoa there friend! You might be able to find a fold on the turn, IF, effective stacks are large AND he bet's into you big, kinda like he did.

3bet more on the flop.

Flop bet should be bigger, cause 3players in pot you should bet 10,5BB, when 2 players in the pot then half pot is good bet with 3of kind aces, cause on flop was a lot of draws for limpers

erlanditas said:

Flop bet should be bigger, cause 3players in pot you should bet 10,5BB, when 2 players in the pot then half pot is good bet with 3of kind aces, cause on flop was a lot of draws for limpers

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Agree. And as a flush is made, set is no longer as strong.

Simple hand really. You have the nuts on the flop and someone raises into you. Bet an amount that properly charges the semi bluff draws making it a pot odds mistake for them to continue with the invitation for him to get it all in with a smaller set or big draw.
This is basic poker and you need to know what to do here . If he shoves the flop you got it in good which is all you can and should do.
As played you gave him better than the correct odds. This was the clear mistake. Once the flush comes you just need to see out the hand as cheaply as possible and hope to hit Your fhouse. As it happens he did not give you the correct odds by potting the turn. Then you compound the error by calling against the odds and presumably got stacked.