$4 NLHE Full Ring: 54s against a rock

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/6/43

No Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.04
Merge Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG+1 - LAinsanity ($4.40)
UTG+2 - Dagoop ($3.27)
MP - VirtualFish ($2.12)
MP2 - StarryNight39 ($4.42)
CO - GhostOfWar ($3.68)
BTN - kindglands ($4.47)
UTG - Toulkork ($4.00)
SB - codiesel ($3.52)
BB - Hero ($2.11)

Preflop: ($0.06, 9 players) Hero is BB with 5s 4s
2 folds, VirtualFish raises to $0.16, 3 folds, codiesel calls $0.14, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: 6c 3s Td ($0.48, 4 players)
codiesel checks, Hero checks, VirtualFish bets $0.24, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.24

Turn: 7s ($0.96, 3 players)
Hero checks, VirtualFish bets $0.48, Hero bets $1.71 (all-in), VirtualFish calls $1.23


Villian stats are from 90 hands total, so I felt okay about him betting something like JJ+, and called the flop based on implied odds - once he was betting there I figured if I hit I could get stacks in. Which I obviously did. Basically just looking to see if people think I called too liberally with the suited connector (out of position) to begin with, etc. Thanks!
 
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WVHillbilly

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Don't play with less than 100bb.
Fold pre.
Not even close.
 
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Karkus77

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its fundamentally wrong, if you were really deep then maybe, but your not, your horribly shallow, its a insta fold
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah I don't even like calling pre here with 300bb stacks.
 
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doomasiggy

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Scourrge said:
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 14/6/43

No Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.04
Merge Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com - Mac OS X hand history analysis and tracking

Stacks:
UTG+1 - LAinsanity ($4.40)
UTG+2 - Dagoop ($3.27)
MP - VirtualFish ($2.12)
MP2 - StarryNight39 ($4.42)
CO - GhostOfWar ($3.68)
BTN - kindglands ($4.47)
UTG - Toulkork ($4.00)
SB - codiesel ($3.52)
BB - Hero ($2.11)

Preflop: ($0.06, 9 players) Hero is BB with 5s 4s
2 folds, VirtualFish raises to $0.16, 3 folds, codiesel calls $0.14, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: 6c 3s Td ($0.48, 4 players)
codiesel checks, Hero checks, VirtualFish bets $0.24, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.24

Turn: 7s ($0.96, 3 players)
Hero checks, VirtualFish bets $0.48, Hero bets $1.71 (all-in), VirtualFish calls $1.23


Villian stats are from 90 hands total, so I felt okay about him betting something like JJ+, and called the flop based on implied odds - once he was betting there I figured if I hit I could get stacks in. Which I obviously did. Basically just looking to see if people think I called too liberally with the suited connector (out of position) to begin with, etc. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Why are we calling a raise from a tight player with 45s out of position short stacked? As played, there's nothing wrong with check-calling the flop.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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My reasoning behind the preflop call was that the times when I do hit a big hand (not often), I'm getting stacks in, because I know he's likely holding a big pair and most of the time won't want to give it up.

But obviously that was wrong wrong wrong ^.^:
 
Karkus77

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that is true, but you have to take into account the stack sizes, these sort of plays only work when your very deep, otherwise your risking too much of your stack on a miracle flop
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah you just don't hit often enough to make it profitable. You're throwing money away by making the call.
 
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baudib1

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Scourrge said:
My reasoning behind the preflop call was that the times when I do hit a big hand (not often), I'm getting stacks in, because I know he's likely holding a big pair and most of the time won't want to give it up.

But obviously that was wrong wrong wrong ^.^:
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Everyone understands why you called. You don't understand why it's absolutely mathematically wrong.

Flopping 2 pair + doesn't happen often enough to make playing suited connectors vs. a nit's range profitable, especially OOP. What's going to happen more often is you hit some sort of big draw and spew off money drawing OOP.

Nits can make money because people like you think you can play this hand in this spot.
 
Matt Vaughan

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baudib1 said:
Nits can make money because people like you think you can play this hand in this spot.
Click to expand...

I'm all for constructive criticism, and I appreciate feedback, but let me offer my humble opinion on something: When dealing with newbies like myself, try not to use OVERLY condescending phrases like "people like you...." That's the kind of phrase that makes people not really want to ever post again. I made a mistake. Frankly that doesn't make me downright stupid. It means I'm still learning.

Thanks to everyone for the challenging and enlightening comments.
 
WVHillbilly

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You'll get plenty of great advice here if you keep posting questions BUT it generally won't come with a spoonful of sugar. We're assholes (well I am anyway). Grow some thicker skin and keep posting and learning but you're very unlikely to change the tone of the answers you get.

Could have been MUCH worse than what has been posted above. baudib1's comment was not meant as an insult, just a fact. The only way super nits make $$s is because loose/passive (read bad) players call way too much, which is exactly what you did in the posted hand.

So basically, sorry, you're bad. If you where at my table I would have labeled you a fish after this hand (actually probably way before that due to stack size). The good news is you can get better and you've found a great place to learn how to do just that.

Hope you stick around and keep posting. Seriously. :)
 
NEWTDOG101

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Come on guys be nice! I think the OP (opening post) gets it "Fold PreFlop"! And keep posting, this is a great place to learn!!! GL
 
Matt Vaughan

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bgomez89

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Be happy at least people post and actually take the time to give advice
 
Ezekiel162

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Just curious and not that it would matter to the original question... What did the villian have & river card? I guess I just want to how he was playing his hand against you as well...
 
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baudib1

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'm all for constructive criticism, and I appreciate feedback, but let me offer my humble opinion on something: When dealing with newbies like myself, try not to use OVERLY condescending phrases like "people like you...."
Click to expand...

Don't take it personally. Also, you need to learn quickly that you need to take criticism and learn from it because almost all poker lessons are harsh. Poker is played for real money, and besides killing someone or sleeping with their spouse, there's not much worse you can do to someone than take their hard-earned money -- it's serious business.

There is really no decisions in poker that are about personal preference; an action is either +EV or 0 EV or -EV. But that's the reason why some people can make money at poker -- people don't willfully choose to play badly. They either don't know how to play well or choose not to because they think it's a matter of personal taste or style, like playing the guitar or buying shoes. It's not.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Ezekiel162 said:
Just curious and not that it would matter to the original question... What did the villian have & river card? I guess I just want to how he was playing his hand against you as well...
Click to expand...
Sorry - didn't notice that that wasn't included. Villain had a set of 10s. River card was 3 of diamonds, giving him a full house.

baudib1 said:
Don't take it personally. Also, you need to learn quickly that you need to take criticism and learn from it because almost all poker lessons are harsh. Poker is played for real money, and besides killing someone or sleeping with their spouse, there's not much worse you can do to someone than take their hard-earned money -- it's serious business.
Click to expand...
Again... Point taken.

baudib1 said:
There is really no decisions in poker that are about personal preference; an action is either +EV or 0 EV or -EV.
Click to expand...
This is the only thing I guess I would question a little bit, since so many professional players have successfully used different styles. I'm not playing devil's advocate here, just trying to think this through: Are you suggesting that there's an "optimal" way to play every single situation? Because when I said personal preference I wasn't talking about musical taste. There are so many ways that people play - even looking at preflop alone - that have at least seemed optimal for them, that it's hard to think about there really being a most-profitable play every single time. Believe me, I love that idea. I'm the type of person who finds the concept of a "hidden" (I say hidden because we don't even have computers that can do it every time) but optimal play pretty frickin' cool.

Sorry that turned kind of rambling. But I guess I've never thought of a necessarily ideal or optimal play before - so thanks.
 
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This was not a good decision mathmatically was unsound to start. . However , the result/outcome was that you made a bad call to start and it cost you. That`s why poker is a constant learning experiance. So don`t feel bad just learn from it and hopefully your play will improve. Good luck.
 
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Are you suggesting that there's an "optimal" way to play every single situation?
Click to expand...

yes

There are so many ways that people play - even looking at preflop alone - that have at least seemed optimal for them, that it's hard to think about there really being a most-profitable play every single time. Believe me, I love that idea. I'm the type of person who finds the concept of a "hidden" (I say hidden because we don't even have computers that can do it every time) but optimal play pretty frickin' cool.
Click to expand...

Yes but. It depends.

It's not as simple as I made it sound; it's not really a binary or trinary (?) thing, it's more like an expected-value continuum. Sometimes you have spots where one action will be +EV but another action will be more +EV. There are tons of spots where betting/raising/checking/check-calling/check-folding/bet-folding are all viable options that you may obsess over for the rest of your life, but the truth is such spots are so close that it probably makes no difference over the long-run (even if the short-term is a 200-BB decision).

Preflop decisions are really solvable. You must ask yourself:

Can I play this hand profitably here?
-- in this position
-- vs. this table, under these specific dynamics
-- with my current image
-- given my skill advantage or disadvantage
-- at these effective stack sizes

It might mean that you should play 40% of hands at one table and 10% at another.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Okay, that all makes a lot of sense. Essentially, even if there IS an optimal play every single time, the differences are often so small (in post flop situations) and finding them may take so long that they are "equivalent" for the purposes of actually playing.


baudib1 said:
Preflop decisions are really solvable. You must ask yourself:

Can I play this hand profitably here?
-- in this position
-- vs. this table, under these specific dynamics
-- with my current image
-- given my skill advantage or disadvantage
-- at these effective stack sizes

It might mean that you should play 40% of hands at one table and 10% at another.
Click to expand...

This is extremely helpful - I'm adding this to a sticky note somewhere... All of that stuff floats around my head at some time or another, but concretely thinking about each one at EACH preflop decision is a challenge, particularly with online play being fairly fast.

I'm almost at my 7-post limit for the day (super annoying), so I imagine I might not be posting at this again, but I wanna say thanks. It's the details that really help bring it all together for someone like me who has a (small) positive winrate but is still very much learning the the finer (and sometimes blatantly obvious) points of the game. :eek:
 
Ezekiel162

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This looks like on of those "sixth sense" situations where you have to know something's "fishy" due to the fact that he seemed to be betting at YOU for value and was reeling you in with an already made "cooler". I've gotten decked like this on occasions on Carbon against flopped sets/2 pairs because they are incredibly hard to spot.
Without even considering the fact of the villians hand, I probably would have folded pre-flop to 4xBB raise being OOP with such a speculative hand thereby avoiding the situation to begin with. Although, if I were to have stayed in as such, I would have placed a pot sized raise instead of calling on the flop because of the draw. The villian either calling/raising you then when showing such strength would/should have set off an alert. jmho...
Any further opinion on this? I'm new here...
 
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