$4 NLHE Full Ring: 3bet KK then folded to possible flush on turn

S

scubed

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Total posts
818
Awards
1
Chips
1
When I am the preflop aggressor and the board is wet - I struggle with the correct play. Should I have bet the flop? If yes, was the flop bet-sizing correct? Should I have folded the turn? If not, what action should I have taken, called or all-in?

In this hand I have KK and 3bet preflop. Villain, who had 2bet, calls my 3bet quickly. What is Villain flat-calling my 3bet with? I put Villain on a range of 22+, Ax, K9+, QT+.

The flop is Qh Th Qs. Mathematically it is unlikely that Villian has a Q. Villain checks and I bet, Villain calls. I have blockers for the straight and flush draw. What is Villain check/calling with? I narrow the range to 22, TT+, AhXh, AQ & KQ (possible, but mathematically unlikely), QT.

The turn brings a 2h where Villain bets out quickly and strongly with a pot size bet. I don't believe I can flat here, but can I raise? In the range I've given Villain how many hands beat me? AA (6 combos), QQ (1 combo), TT (1 combo), 22 (3 combos), QT, Q2, T2, AhXh (8 combos). This means 19 hands. I decide it is all-in or fold since Villain's turn bet is for 60% of my stack. I folded.

----HAND DETAILS----- Click here to watch the hand replay.

This hand was played on Global Poker so no HUD data is available. Villain was splashy, but seemed to be selective in their hands (wasn't playing trash regularly), and also didn't seem to be positionally aware.

Player#2976 Stack $4.15
Player#2523 Stack $8.85
VILLAIN Player#4563 Stack $8.66
Player#2540 Stack $4.93
Player#1539 Stack $4.86
Player#1829 Stack $2.43
HERO scubed Stack $5.06

HERO is dealt :kh4: :ks4:

PREFLOP ACTION
Player#2976 Small Blind 0.02
Player#2523 Big Blind 0.04
VILLAIN Player#4563 Raise $0.14
Player#2540 Fold
Player#1539 Fold
Player#1829 Fold
HERO scubed Raise $0.40
Player#2976 Fold
Player#2523 Fold
VILLAIN Player#4563 Call $0.26

FLOP :qh4: :10h4: :qs4:

FLOP ACTION
VILLAIN Player#4563 Check
HERO scubed Bet $0.72
VILLAIN Player#4563 Call $0.72

TURN :2h4:

TURN ACTION
VILLAIN Player#4563 Bet $2.30
HERO scubed Fold
VILLAIN Player#4563 Muck

RESULT OF HAND
VILLAIN Player#4563 WINS $1.07
HERO scubed LOSES -$1.12

 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Don't fold an overpair (with a flush draw) in a 3-bet pot. Especially against a splashy villain. Your opponent's range is so much wider than flushes here. Just get it in on the turn.

In 3-bet pots, your opponent generally is playing less suited combos, as many suited connectors and trashier suited cards fold to a 3-bet. And if they don't fold those combos, then you should still be stacking off, because their range is full of garbage.

To conclude, the SPR is 5.4:1 on the flop, and you have an overpair & a flush draw. Ship it.

Also, don't show the results (even if you folded).
 
Last edited:
Ragequit

Ragequit

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 16, 2018
Total posts
347
Chips
0
I can see why you suspected a draw that got there on the turn. But I agree with c9h13no3, the fact that this was a 3bet pot makes it less likely you were up against suited connector combos etc. It would be helpful if you included the total pot sizes in your description. That way we could see how his bet sizes are changing in relation to the pot. This would give valuable clues as to whether he donk bet for value or as a bluffy blocking bet. In general though, in this situation, a third heart appearing in a 3bet pot actually makes it LESS likely you are beaten because now there are less flush combos they can have. Over a large sample of hands your Kings are crushing their range. You must continue even if it means a short term down swing. Folding Kings frequently in this spot will cost you MORE in EV over the long term. Ragequit
 
Ragequit

Ragequit

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 16, 2018
Total posts
347
Chips
0
I'll just add this. Their bet could also have been a marginal hand which was now worried about the three-flush on the board. They don't want you to check back and see a 4th heart cheaply on the river. Now that could certainly be the case if you are up against a decent player. But against a laggy fish then they're just gonna donk you "cause it feels good" or they just wanna feel in control of the action. I would have flatted their bet and shipped the river or even just shipped the turn as you suggested earlier. Ragequit
 
S

scubed

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Total posts
818
Awards
1
Chips
1
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the words. I will reflect on them and learn!
Don't fold an overpair (with a flush draw) in a 3-bet pot. Especially against a splashy villain. Your opponent's range is so much wider than flushes here. Just get it in on the turn.

In 3-bet pots, your opponent generally is playing less suited combos, as many suited connectors and trashier suited cards fold to a 3-bet. And if they don't fold those combos, then you should still be stacking off, because their range is full of garbage.
Great things to think about. I may have gotten too hung up on the fact that I didn't have the :ah4: instead of thinking about what I did have... a strong overpair and 13 outs I could catch in the event I was behind.
To conclude, the SPR is 5.4:1 on the flop, and you have an overpair & a flush draw. Ship it.
If I understand correctly, you recommend the best play would have been to ship it on the flop instead of betting ~3/4 pot? Do you have any recommendations on reading/studying to get a better grasp on SPR? I haven't yet added this concept explicitly into my game, and I only have a novice understanding of it.
Also, don't show the results (even if you folded).
Got it! Sorry - learning how to properly post these kinds of questions!
 
S

scubed

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Total posts
818
Awards
1
Chips
1
I really appreciate your words and will use them to learn.
I can see why you suspected a draw that got there on the turn. But I agree with c9h13no3, the fact that this was a 3bet pot makes it less likely you were up against suited connector combos etc.
In micro stakes I often observe folks calling 3bet pots with marginal hands. The Villain did 2bet strongly and then called my 3bet. Would you typically narrow his range to pocket pairs?

It would be helpful if you included the total pot sizes in your description. That way we could see how his bet sizes are changing in relation to the pot. This would give valuable clues as to whether he donk bet for value or as a bluffy blocking bet.
Got it! Thank you for the mentorship, I'll make sure future posts include this information.

In general though, in this situation, a third heart appearing in a 3bet pot actually makes it LESS likely you are beaten because now there are less flush combos they can have. Over a large sample of hands your Kings are crushing their range. You must continue even if it means a short term down swing. Folding Kings frequently in this spot will cost you MORE in EV over the long term. Ragequit
Thank you so much for this reminder. I have a modest bankroll that I am protecting. I need to ensure that I make the LONG-TERM decisions, not focused on the immediate results, so that my bankroll can grow.
 
Ragequit

Ragequit

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 16, 2018
Total posts
347
Chips
0
In micro stakes I often observe folks calling 3bet pots with marginal hands. The Villain did 2bet strongly and then called my 3bet. Would you typically narrow his range to pocket pairs?.


This is a good point. In the micros yes you can see some players making strange calls facing 3bets. So maybe you shouldn't always discount a made draw on the turn. But I think it's still unlikely that they've hit a draw here (on average). More often it will be a scared hand betting for protection. For consider this, if they had just hit a monster draw wouldn't they just check to you and wait for you to bet? Thoughts like this are useful in these situations.
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Total posts
2,194
Awards
4
Chips
0
Id check the flop with the backdoor draws and try and induce some bluffs from villain and pot control.The Kh blocks a'lot of villains draws so our hand doesn't need a great deal of protection and also benefits from pot control.Because it's not worth three streets of value.
 
T

thackro

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 23, 2018
Total posts
62
Chips
0
I would have gone all in on the turn, folding an over pair with a flush draw not something i would do when the other player leads out. More often than not you will be up against a 10 trying to represent and/or protect
 
Y

Yoda_Priest_X_Napo

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2018
Total posts
75
Chips
0
Checking this flop with this hand is a good way to go.This way your range gonna be much more polarized on this spot as it should be imo and you rarely gonna have trouble vs this Donk bet.Also your 3bet is kinda small.As played if you have no info on him, your fold is fine. Villain could be worried that you check back a single heart to realize your equity and lead with a Q , and you underestimate how many of those he has, what range he gets to the turn with has nothing to do with what range he decided to donk it, he can be heavily unbalanced towards value pretty easily in this spot. AhJx is a possible bluff,other than that this is not a sport where he should even lead not to mention leading merged.I would need a recreational+spazz read to make that a call.
 
R

rafffinamore

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Total posts
287
Awards
1
BR
Chips
4
I would bet everything on this hand, logically you made a slower game to extract more chips. The risks are bigger in this case and things are always like this, you have to be prepared for it.
 
R

rafffinamore

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Total posts
287
Awards
1
BR
Chips
4
Checking this flop with this hand is a good way to go.This way your range gonna be much more polarized on this spot as it should be imo and you rarely gonna have trouble vs this Donk bet.Also your 3bet is kinda small.As played if you have no info on him, your fold is fine. Villain could be worried that you check back a single heart to realize your equity and lead with a Q , and you underestimate how many of those he has, what range he gets to the turn with has nothing to do with what range he decided to donk it, he can be heavily unbalanced towards value pretty easily in this spot. AhJx is a possible bluff,other than that this is not a sport where he should even lead not to mention leading merged.I would need a recreational+spazz read to make that a call.
I agree with your opinion, I think it was very appropriate for you to place this hand in analysis.
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
Total posts
2,194
Awards
4
Chips
0
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/concepts/spr/

Stacking off with TPTK or an overpair in a 3-bet pot (where the SPR is usually 6 or less) is standard. As my chemistry professor used to say "go convince yourself this is true".


There are times we don't have to go broke in a 3bet pot and there are times we can pot control also.It's not always about shoveling the money in as quick as possible.
 
Full Flush Poker Folding in Poker
Top