$4 NLHE Full Ring: 3-betting a 1/2 stack OOP with AK. Would YOU call the 4-bet shove?

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Deceitful_Frank

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$4 NLHE Full Ring: 3-betting a 1/2 stack OOP with AK. Would YOU call the 4-bet shove?

Quite an interesting one I think. I made the call. what would you have done and why?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1)
UTG+1 ($1.56)
MP1 ($1.78)
MP2 ($4.94)
CO ($5)
Button ($2.97)
Hero (SB) ($2.62)
BB ($3.33)

No useful stats but they average about 24/8

Preflop: Hero is SB with A
heart.gif
, K
spade.gif

UTG bets $0.08, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.28, 1 fold,

Standard 3-bet from the SB. Ok perhaps the size was a little small but I feel nothing criminal. His range looks strong and I considered mucking the AK as a call would surely be bad but I decided a raise would let me know where I was! As a half stack I figure he isnt the sharpest knife in the block. I feel there is a chance of a shove...

UTG raises to $1 (All-In), Hero calls $0.72

So I'm getting 1.8:1 so I can call if he has anything but AA and KK. I feel its less likely he has these since I have AK. Should I have 3-bet shoved against this guy to save myself decision or would this have wasted value?
 
WVHillbilly

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Snap call. You might as well fold to his open if you ever even consider 3bet/folding to a half-stack.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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I am pleased you agree. For the record he had 66 and made a set (I made TPTK) on the flop. Two bricks came on the turn and river so I lost the hand but I guess its irrelivent if I made the right play :)
 
bgomez89

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You were thinking about just folding ak to one raise? If you do this a lot you have a serious Leak. As played, instacall his shove, he's doing this with worse or a coin flip.
 
WVHillbilly

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You were thinking about just folding ak to one raise? If you do this a lot you have a serious Leak. As played, instacall his shove, he's doing this with worse or a coin flip.

I don't think he was for the record. I just said that he might as well just fold if he's even thinking he should 3bet/fold.
 
bgomez89

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He said that he considered mucking
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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I consider all options!
 
Pascal-lf

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His range looks strong and I considered mucking the AK as a call would surely be bad but I decided a raise would let me know where I was! As a half stack I figure he isnt the sharpest knife in the block. I feel there is a chance of a shove...

Decent play, bad reasoning though.

Firstly, his range does look strong, but consider AK against a tight range:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.011% 43.60% 11.41% 349384032 91448154.00 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }
Hand 1: 44.989% 33.58% 11.41% 269077932 91448154.00 { AKo }

Add the fact he may well be raising suited connectors and weaker kings which you have dominated and you are in excellent shape.

Secondly, never never raise for information. Unless you like burning money. Raise for one of two reasons - for value, if you think you have the best hand and to charge for draws, or as a bluff/semi-bluff, if you think you're behind but that your opponent has a weak hand they will fold.

In this case, you are 100% 3betting for value, in the hope he ships. I would say, given my experience at 2NL, he ships pretty much everything he opens with, plus lots of lower pocket pairs (fish seem to love these for some reason) and pretty much any 2 broadway. You are basically flipping with this range, and you'll find that they have enough crap in their range plus enough dead money from other callers to make it profitable :)
 
LuckyChippy

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I wish I could get it into every players head the power of being aggressive with AK and how it is almost never wrong to get it in pre-flop. Or do I?
 
bgomez89

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I wish I could get it into every players head the power of being aggressive with AK and how it is almost never wrong to get it in pre-flop. Or do I?

i find myself folding to 4bets with AK pretty easily, leak?
 
bgomez89

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True except the only villains ill get it all in pre with ak are maniacs and short short stacks
 
bgomez89

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I could start 4 bet bluffing but at these stakes most aren't folding to a 4 bet after they 3 bet(at least from what I've seen). Chippy, I just don't see calling a 4 bet or 5 bet shoving ak at the micros can be profitable.

Id really like to know more about it though, do you guys have any articles i could look at on the subject?
 
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LuckyChippy

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I could start 4 bet bluffing but at these stakes most aren't folding to a 4 bet after they 3 bet(at least from what I've seen). Chippy, I just don't see calling a 4 bet or 5 bet shoving ak at the micros can be profitable.

Id really like to know more about it though, do you guys have any articles i could look at on the subject?

So if a fish 3-bets he never has AQ or AJ or TT? Sure he might not 4-bet them a whole lot but they do terrible things sometimes for the wrong reasons. Also I'm not suggesting calling a non shove 4-bet that is really terrible and folding/raising is always better.
 
WVHillbilly

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I could start 4 bet bluffing but at these stakes most aren't folding to a 4 bet after they 3 bet(at least from what I've seen). Chippy, I just don't see calling a 4 bet or 5 bet shoving ak at the micros can be profitable.

Id really like to know more about it though, do you guys have any articles i could look at on the subject?

Don't you play 6-max??? Shouldn't you be worrying about a range of say JJ+/AQ+? Against that range you're flipping and with all the dead money in the pot it's certainly better to flip than to 3bet/fold.

If you want to take out AQ it's slightly -Ev but it's the micros so you can probably expect pairs lower than JJ as well. At 77+/AK you're back to the plus side and I still think you'll see AQ/random Axs in there enough to make the play profitable.
 
LuckyChippy

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This is against a 15/5/2.0 with a 0% 3-bet in the session I just played and I thought of this thread:

full tilt poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 930405
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG+1: $2.00
MP: $1.18
CO: $2.80
BTN: $2.02
SB: $0.68
Hero (BB): $2.64
UTG: $3.44

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with K A
3 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.22, CO raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.64 all in, 1 fold

Final Pot: $1.26
Hero wins $1.26
(Rake: $-0.00)


Sure he might have been 4-bet squeezing if that's even a term, but he folded his 4-bet and he's on the tighter side.
 
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baudib1

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he's a nit who will fold QQ after 4-betting it. ez monies.
 
bgomez89

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Sorry I wasn't trying to sound like I knew for sure that 5bet shoving(because calling a 4 bet with ak is probably bad with 100bb) wasn't profitable. Thanks for the info, ill implement into my game
 
Pascal-lf

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This is against a 15/5/2.0 with a 0% 3-bet in the session I just played and I thought of this thread:

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 930405
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG+1: $2.00
MP: $1.18
CO: $2.80
BTN: $2.02
SB: $0.68
Hero (BB): $2.64
UTG: $3.44

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with K A
3 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.22, CO raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.64 all in, 1 fold

Final Pot: $1.26
Hero wins $1.26
(Rake: $-0.00)


Sure he might have been 4-bet squeezing if that's even a term, but he folded his 4-bet and he's on the tighter side.

Nice :D

4 bet squeezing would be if there was, for example, a raise, a three bet, and two or three callers before you - you 4bet to try and take it down, putting a "squeeze" on all the other people in the hand ;)
 
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