$4 NLHE Full Ring: 2NL straight draw with less clean outs, bad turn barrel?

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Deceitful_Frank

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pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($2.15)
CO ($0.82) This guy is a 19/5 over 420 hands
Button ($3.23)
SB ($4.98)
Hero (BB) ($2.47)
UTG ($0.86)
UTG+1 ($4.89)
MP1 ($2.62)
MP2 ($1.99)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7
club.gif
, 7
heart.gif

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero checks

Don't feel strong enough in this spot to go for the pot pre-flop so I take the free look.

Flop: ($0.09) 4
heart.gif
, 6
diamond.gif
, 5
spade.gif
(4 players)
Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10

So far so good. Sitting open ended and not too worried about 87. When I bluff from the BB I pot it so 10c it is.

Turn: ($0.39) 2
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $0.28, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.56, Hero folds

Ok I have lost some clean outs but I feel its right to barrel.

He raises and I will be OOP on the river so implied odds not good.
Correct fold?
 
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psy0nyd3

psy0nyd3

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I'd say raise to 3 or 4 BB preflop.. Esp. since everyone is limping around, and then you most likely wont have to worry about the x3s or a tiny 2 pair and wouldn't be in that situation? If I was in that spot I would be tempted to shove on him it looks like he's level 2 thinking that you were just trying to take it down? That or he has A3s and you made a great fold.

My analysis is probably wrong in at least 3 different ways though. :D
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Haven't I seen you post hands where you're raising Axo from the blinds in limped pots yet you decide to check here with 77???? Raise preflop.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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Yes you are right, I have completely overhauled my pre-flop game and tightened up a lot from the blinds. You can pretty much disregard alot that you have seen from me before as now in a spot like this I would be checking anything less than AQ, AJs, KQs, 88+. I am now about 12/10 as I am finding spots to call IP if I feel I beat their range and am overlimping a little with SCs deep-stacked.

I feel my post-flop play is pretty solid in comparison to most (at 2NL) and have discovered how much more fun it is putting money in with marginal WITH position.

Ignoring the perhaps slightly nitty pre-flop, what do you make of the rest of the hand?
 
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orangepeeleo

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Definetly raise PF, the CO at least is being quite passive so he may not come along to a raise, getting it down to only 2 villains, your oop but its better to be oop against 2 villains and showing intiative.

With 3 others in the hand i would also not bet out so big as a semi-bluff, your going to get looked up a lot on this board, i'd make it a lil less, not a huge mistake but long run n all that :D Its kinda weird that you wouldnt show any aggression PF but now that the flop comes and hits a few limpy type hands that'll call at least 1 street you decide to aggro it up and semi-bluff??

On the turn i most def would not shove given that you let 3 limpers come along, its not inconceivable for 1 of them to have a 3 and as you said, this takes some of your outs away. You havent put the BTNs stats but i'd fold here i think, given the standard passivity of the 2nl field its probable that he has you beat.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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WVHillbilly said:
Haven't I seen you post hands where you're raising Axo from the blinds in limped pots yet you decide to check here with 77???? Raise preflop.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity and seeing as this was a near borderline check. Would you have suggested I had raised pre-flop with 66, 55 or even 44? What for you would be the cut-off point as far as pocket pairs are concerned in this spot where you would have just taken the free look?

I take orangepeeleo's point with the slightly spewy flop bet but pre-flop I am struggling to see checking 77 here as a mistake.
 
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orangepeeleo

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Deceitful_Frank said:
I take orangepeeleo's point with the slightly spewy flop bet but pre-flop I am struggling to see checking 77 here as a mistake.
Click to expand...

IMO, for the same reason that we don't limp UTG, when your oop with a hand you want to play its already going to be harder for you being oop, you can make it less hard though by thinning the field and taking the initiative, which is what a bet here achieves.
 
WVHillbilly

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Deceitful_Frank said:
Just out of curiosity and seeing as this was a near borderline check. Would you have suggested I had raised pre-flop with 66, 55 or even 44? What for you would be the cut-off point as far as pocket pairs are concerned in this spot where you would have just taken the free look?

I take orangepeeleo's point with the slightly spewy flop bet but pre-flop I am struggling to see checking 77 here as a mistake.
Click to expand...

I would be raising all pocket pairs but maybe that's not right at 2nl? Basically by checking you have to make a hand to win (as evidenced by the play postflop). If we raise pre, lots of good things can happen. Everyone can fold, we could get HU and win lots of pots with a flop cbet, or we could get lots of calls and need to make a hand to win (same situation as when we check just for a bigger pot).
 
psy0nyd3

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Deceitful_Frank said:
Just out of curiosity and seeing as this was a near borderline check. Would you have suggested I had raised pre-flop with 66, 55 or even 44? What for you would be the cut-off point as far as pocket pairs are concerned in this spot where you would have just taken the free look?

I take orangepeeleo's point with the slightly spewy flop bet but pre-flop I am struggling to see checking 77 here as a mistake.
Click to expand...


If you're going to play it at all, make the bet, because then even when you miss your set or straight draw and you decide to make semi bluffs at any point, they'll be more believable. Representing the small pairs strong gives you the illusion of a bigger hand so they might be less willing to raise against your bet on the turn.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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orangepeeleo said:
IMO, for the same reason that we don't limp UTG, when your oop with a hand you want to play its already going to be harder for you being oop, you can make it less hard though by thinning the field and taking the initiative, which is what a bet here achieves.
Click to expand...

But as a tight player isn't it better to see a free flop with a mediocre hand against others who have position and throw it away if the flop brings no joy, moving on the the next hand.

...than to raise in a bad spot with a mediocre hand against weak passive calling stations throwing good money after bad?

Call me too tight, even a bit of a nit but just because we have the hand, doesn't mean we have to play it. I am all for thinning the field and taking the initiative but I think we can find MUCH better spots to do it no?
 
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orangepeeleo

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WVHillbilly said:
I would be raising all pocket pairs but maybe that's not right at 2nl? Basically by checking you have to make a hand to win (as evidenced by the play postflop). If we raise pre, lots of good things can happen. Everyone can fold, we could get HU and win lots of pots with a flop cbet, or we could get lots of calls and need to make a hand to win (same situation as when we check just for a bigger pot).
Click to expand...

I've only played like 2.5k 2nl hands since being back but i would be raising all PP here too.... think it might be the past year of 6max rubbing off on me, i see 2 limpers and think HAHA SHORTHANDED!!! RAISE! :D
 
WVHillbilly

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Any time I see limpers I think FREE MONEY! I then look at my position and my hand strength. Here our position sucks but our hand strength is good and with free money in the pot I don't need both to raise.

Even if we check and hit our set how often are we going to get paid off anyway in a limped pot? You need to be raising this 100% of the time for value.
 
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orangepeeleo

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Deceitful_Frank said:
But as a tight player isn't it better to see a free flop with a mediocre hand against others who have position and throw it away if the flop brings no joy, moving on the the next hand.

...than to raise in a bad spot with a mediocre hand against weak passive calling stations throwing good money after bad?

Call me too tight, even a bit of a nit but just because we have the hand, doesn't mean we have to play it. I am all for thinning the field and taking the initiative but I think we can find MUCH better spots to do it no?
Click to expand...

Its not about the hand imo, the average 2nl hand goes something like this - 1 or 2 villains limp, we raise, flop comes and we cbet, they fold. If you just had the BTN & SB limping would you raise this hand??
 
c9h13no3

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The best hand I'd check here preflop is like 55.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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orangepeeleo said:
Its not about the hand imo, the average 2nl hand goes something like this - 1 or 2 villains limp, we raise, flop comes and we cbet, they fold. If you just had the BTN & SB limping would you raise this hand??
Click to expand...

You know what, I think I probably JUST about would have raised yes, maybe 8-10c, as I said before it was a borderline decision.

WVHillbilly said:
I would be raising all pocket pairs
Click to expand...

MP3 ($2.15)
CO ($0.82)
Button ($3.23)
SB ($4.98)
Hero (BB) ($2.47)
UTG ($0.86)
UTG+1 ($4.89)
MP1 ($2.62)
MP2 ($1.99)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2
club.gif
, 2
heart.gif

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero checks

Had I posted the above would you still have suggested a raise?

Perhaps I inderate small to medium pairs. Well at the very least its somethnig to think about.
 
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orangepeeleo

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Deceitful_Frank said:
You know what, I think I probably JUST about would have raised yes, maybe 8-10c
The BTN limps SB completes and you can JUST force yourself to raise in the BB with 77?? I'd probably raise there with just about any hand lol and i aint even LAG! NIT!!!!!!:D
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
WVHillbilly

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Deceitful_Frank said:
MP3 ($2.15)
CO ($0.82)
Button ($3.23)
SB ($4.98)
Hero (BB) ($2.47)
UTG ($0.86)
UTG+1 ($4.89)
MP1 ($2.62)
MP2 ($1.99)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2
club.gif
, 2
heart.gif

2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero checks

Had I posted the above would you still have suggested a raise?

Perhaps I inderate small to medium pairs. Well at the very least its somethnig to think about.
Click to expand...

Yes I would raise 22 there. Basically the best hand we're up against unless we get limp/raised is a small pocket pair and we're going to take the pot down when we cbet most flops against a small pp if we manage to get HU.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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Sorry I didn't read that you meant one of the limpers was the SB. I guess I can pretty much disregard him as a threat so yes, that would have been an easy raise. If the 2 limpers had position on me it would have been a reluctant raise!
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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If I see a board that I can stab at when I get a free look I just bet the pot so noone tries to mess with me. If they resist I give up cos at 2NL people just don't seem to think on on a high enough level to not have the goods when they riase or flat call me in these spots.

It only has to work about 50% of the time but seems to work 4 times out of 5.
When I make a hand that I want to bet for value I also just bet the pot. This provides deception and gives me a little more action when I do want to play some more post-flop poker.

I have tightened up my play pre-flop from the blinds but I now get lots of opportunites to bluff and stab at flops with hands that dominate the trash the idiots limp in with.

Seems to be working well so far.
 
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Pascal-lf

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So people don't think on a "high enough level" to bluff, but they do notice minute difference in bet sizing enough to develop tells on you?

Fish don't care about bet sizing unless it's the difference between 1/10 pot and full pot. Making your bluffs slightly smaller will save a lot of money in the long run, while no one will notice the difference when you bet 9/10 pot instead of 7/10 pot for value.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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Well these pots are generally around 8c so would you suggest I bet less as a bluff or more for value?
 
LuckyChippy

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Why are we so keen to call it a semi-bluff on the flop? He has a made hand...
 
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