$4 NLHE Full Ring: $2NL - Betting the pot on the flop?

pokerman27 · Jul 18, 2010

$4 NL HE Full Ring: $2NL - Betting the pot on the flop?

Should I have bet the pot here on the flop, bearing in mind a call or raise form villain leaves so little behind? Should I have bet smaller to allow myself to get out? Not sure I'm ever folding here even though villain is tight aggressive and calling my 3-bet had alarm bells ringing...

full tilt poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 810195
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
Hero (BB): $2.41
UTG: $0.57
UTG+1: $1.73
UTG+2: $0.82
MP1: $1.48
MP2: $1.43
CO: $1.13
BTN: $4.12
SB: $2.03
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with J ♦ J ♣
5 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.24, CO calls $0.18
Flop: ($0.49) 7 ♠ 8 ♣ 6 ♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.49, CO raises to $0.89 all in, Hero calls $0.40
Turn: ($2.27) 9 ♣ (2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($2.27) 9 ♠ (2 players - 1 is all in)

c9h13no3 · Jul 20, 2010

Nh sir.

Nitpick - Bet less on the flop ($0.28 sounds good), so that he thinks he can shove over you with some fold equity.

pokerman27 · Jul 20, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
Nh sir.

I'm guessing that's sarcasm, C9?

Agreed I should have bet less on the flop but if shoves over me i'm folding right? He has me beat there all day long doesn't he?

naruto_miu · Jul 20, 2010

pokerman27 said:
I'm guessing that's sarcasm, C9?

Agreed I should have bet less on the flop but if shoves over me i'm folding right? He has me beat there all day long doesn't he?

Wow that's a weird hand....But ok...Since I'm not really in this area OF CC all that often my advice really is irrelevant yet I'm gonna go on a limb here....

OK so you 4bet preflop OOP with JJ, and he just flats you...so then this flop comes correct....Well judging by this I wouldn't say this person beats you just yet...I mean hands that would Flat in position really are small pairs to mid pairs ok...so that's what 2(66) 2(77) 2(88), Maybe 10s, and Maybe 5s deepening on the player types....I personally would expect QQ to be shoving at those limits that's why I haven't really even put it in his range I mean It really doesn't sound like a TAG/LAG players movev (Could be wrong though)....

1 thing I don't like about your move is your bet on the flop seriously is not cool at all, I mean you don't leave any room to really find out information about his hand, there-fore your really just playing Blind.....As it stands If I had to guess his hand it's really difficult with your bet, cuz of the lack of info your giving us when you more or less make such a bet, but I'm gonna say he had either 7s or 10s

or pure air....

So next-time only advice I'd give is really just bet like 1 half of the pot, just to find out where you stand in the hand...

F Paulsson · Jul 20, 2010

pokerman27 said:
I'm guessing that's sarcasm, C9?

Agreed I should have bet less on the flop but if shoves over me i'm folding right? He has me beat there all day long doesn't he?

C9 was most certainly not sarcastic. And you're DEFINITELY NOT BET/FOLDING! You're getting it in here all day, every day. The only reason you shouldn't just openshove the flop is because you want to give him a chance to try to bluff you.

Villain is halfstacked at 2NL. Folding JJ overpair in a 3bet pot is totally, completely and utterly out of the question.

tenbob · Jul 20, 2010

naruto_miu said:
Wow that's a weird hand....But ok...Since I'm not really in this area OF CC all that often my advice really is irrelevant yet I'm gonna go on a limb here....

OK so you 4bet preflop OOP with JJ, and he just flats you...so then this flop comes correct....Well judging by this I wouldn't say this person beats you just yet...I mean hands that would Flat in position really are small pairs to mid pairs ok...so that's what 2(66) 2(77) 2(88), Maybe 10s, and Maybe 5s deepening on the player types....I personally would expect QQ to be shoving at those limits that's why I haven't really even put it in his range I mean It really doesn't sound like a TAG/LAG players movev (Could be wrong though)....

1 thing I don't like about your move is your bet on the flop seriously is not cool at all, I mean you don't leave any room to really find out information about his hand, there-fore your really just playing Blind.....As it stands If I had to guess his hand it's really difficult with your bet, cuz of the lack of info your giving us when you more or less make such a bet, but I'm gonna say he had either 7s or 10s or pure air....

So next-time only advice I'd give is really just bet like 1 half of the pot, just to find out where you stand in the hand...

What exactly do you find out when you bet half the pot though ?

Betting for information here (or most places) is just a bad idea, what exactly do you find out if he raises ? His range on the flop is mostly the same as it is pre.

pokerman27 · Jul 20, 2010

F Paulsson said:
C9 was most certainly not sarcastic. And you're DEFINITELY NOT BET/FOLDING! You're getting it in here all day, every day. The only reason you shouldn't just openshove the flop is because you want to give him a chance to try to bluff you.

Villain is halfstacked at 2NL. Folding JJ overpair in a 3bet pot is totally, completely and utterly out of the question.

OK, I'm with you thanks.

So should I be getting it in here too with 10s? I realise my flop bet sizing needs work and I have reduced this now:

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 804890
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
SB: $1.73
BB: $2.23
UTG: $0.83
UTG+1: $2.00
UTG+2: $2.00
MP1: $2.23
Hero (MP2): $2.17
CO: $1.73
BTN: $1.97
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP2 with T ♠ T ♣
4 folds, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $0.06, CO calls $0.06, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.15) 3 ♠ 5 ♥ 7 ♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, CO raises to $0.46, Hero requests TIME, Hero folds

pokerman27 · Jul 20, 2010

naruto_miu said:
1 thing I don't like about your move is your bet on the flop seriously is not cool at all, I mean you don't leave any room to really find out information about his hand, there-fore your really just playing Blind

I was always told NOT to bet purely for info - bet either for value or as a bluff - here I bet for value, maybe too large a bet, but for value nonetheless...

F Paulsson · Jul 20, 2010

pokerman27 said:
OK, I'm with you thanks.

So should I be getting it in here too with 10s? I realise my flop bet sizing needs work and I have reduced this now:

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 804890
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
SB: $1.73
BB: $2.23
UTG: $0.83
UTG+1: $2.00
UTG+2: $2.00
MP1: $2.23
Hero (MP2): $2.17
CO: $1.73
BTN: $1.97
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP2 with T ♠ T ♣
4 folds, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $0.06, CO calls $0.06, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.15) 3 ♠ 5 ♥ 7 ♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, CO raises to $0.46, Hero requests TIME, Hero folds

This hand is nowhere near as clear-cut as the last one, and the reason has to do with pot odds. Sort of. In hand #1, the pot is so big compared to your remaining effective stack (if you're not sure what "effective stack" means, feel free to ask) that what you risk is little compared to what you gain. Here, however, the pot is only $.15 on the flop, with the effective stack being $1.55 (or whatever it comes out to), so getting it in is no longer automatic.

The principle is called "SPR" (stack-to-pot ratio) and your SPR in hand #1 is less than 2, and in hand #2 is closer to 10 ($1.55 / $.15 ~= 10). The lower the SPR the less likely you should be to fold. The higher the SPR the less willing you should be to play for stacks. To take the extreme examples: If the pot is $1 and you have a million dollar stack, getting it in with JJ on a 8-7-6 board is obviously not good. And conversely, folding JJ on a 8-7-6 flop with one dollar left in the stack and a million on the table is also horrible.

Jurn8 · Jul 20, 2010

try to bet around 2/3 - 3/4 the pot as a standard cbet but bet more if you have a strong hand on a drawy board like top set on monotone board. obviously if we have a super station or fish then we can adjust bet sizing accordingly.

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$4 NLHE Full Ring: $2NL - Betting the pot on the flop?

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