$4 NLHE 6-max: River B/F Spot?

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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That's right everyone, I'm back to the online grind and spewing it up big time. I think flop and turn calls are marginal, not sure how profitable since I doubt the IO are huge. River seems to be a mandatory bet, but is it a B/F??

Calling felt like spewing in the moment - seems like he calls or folds AA, so he really only ever raises FHs there.

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 250.25 BB (VPIP: 25.33, PFR: 15.11, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, hands: 227)
SB: 143.25 BB (VPIP: 25.58, PFR: 17.94, 3Bet Preflop: 9.92, Hands: 311)
Hero (BB): 124 BB
UTG: 107 BB (VPIP: 23.66, PFR: 18.32, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 134)
MP: 150.75 BB (VPIP: 38.16, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 77)
CO: 107.75 BB (VPIP: 31.18, PFR: 7.53, 3Bet Preflop: 6.82, Hands: 93)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8:club: 8:spade:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond: 7:club: 5:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 6.5 BB, Hero calls 6.5 BB

Turn: (19.5 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 9.75 BB, Hero calls 9.75 BB

River: (39 BB, 2 players) 9:heart:
Hero bets 33 BB, BTN raises to 103 BB, Hero calls 70 BB

BTN shows 7:diamond: 7:spade: (Full House, Sevens full of Fives) (Pre 18%, Flop 68%, Turn 95%)
Hero mucks 8:club: 8:spade: (Straight, Nine High) (Pre 82%, Flop 32%, Turn 5%)
BTN wins 228.75 BB

In b4 "fold pre" :)
 
taaron

taaron

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its kinda a gross spot, but otr that deepstack is never messing about.
 
R

rw11687

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Tough luck, bit of a cooler.

I can tell you that in the moment, I would prob have a hard time folding the river. But with taking a step back and analyzing the play, it seems he has to have a FH. Villain didn't show any concern that 4 to a straight hit, otherwise they would have just called the river bet.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Bet/fold. There's only two 8's left in the deck, and this is going to be a boat quite often.

I'm also not thrilled with flatting twice. But I can't think up a line I like better.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Folding flop seems fine, but a flat is close. There's no reason for him to bomb the flop with air really, but being open-ended makes it so tough to think that way.
 
Aces2w1n

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This might sound a little nuts but i like aggression.

Preflop i would've reraised to see where you were at? he's probably got 55-10s if he flat calls.

Flop... Reraise double the pot ... if he calls or reraises, he'll most likely have a set or at worse 2 pair... And might get you out of that bad spot, though to tbh i'd be almost shoving on the flop. Open ender and you have top pair your going it.

Turn play... Well say if you had reraised him on the flop, he's definetly got something if he's raising the turn as well and ofc you raise the turn.. your raising the river... no sense of slowing down means big trouble and extreme strength, oh well that's my insight on how i would play it.
 
Yoshimiii

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Most of the time I would be 3 betting this against a steal pre-flop. I don't agree with the above comment of "re-raising to see where we are at" but I simply think we have the best hand the majority of the time here.

Flop I would just call, I think raising will only get better hands to call and we don't want to get re-raised and give up our equity with the straight draw. Again getting it in with a mediocre overpair with open ended straight draw in DEEPSTACK poker is just not profitable. Don't do it unless villain is a mega-fish/maniac. Also I am never folding that flop to just one bet, why can't he have 7/X here?

Turn I probably call, hard to fold here even though an overpair looks likely.

River is a *sigh* B/F. Especially deep-stack he is only raising FH's here, he is never bluffing here and he rarely has the other 8's here I think.
 
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Matt Vaughan

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Erm, 3betting 88 pre here is going to be a bit of a leak in most spots in the long run.

Having the best hand against the current range is not what makes raising +EV. We need to have a combination of enough folds and be good enough against his continuing range that we see profit. And while that may be true with 88 here, we have to play 88 in terms of a larger strategy. If I'm 3betting 88 here, I would also be 3betting 77-, and my 3bet range is suddenly exploding. If you wanna rewrite the book on 3betting, go for it, but personally I know I'm gonna be lighting money on fire if I start tossing small to medium pairs into my resteal range.

Also: he can't have 7x on the flop unless it's specifically 76s or 75s imo. He's not a maniac opening 100% of buttons... And every other 7 that might be in his range like 78s or 79s will NOT be potting it.

@ Yoshi: The reason I'm calling the turn is because he gives me a fantastic price and an overpair looks likely. A lot of players in his spot will struggle to fold an overpair even when a 4th straight card comes down.

@ Aces: You're kidding me, right? Raising to "see where you're at" will most likely be a mistake in most spots, because it means you don't actually know why you're betting (value vs. bluff). In other words you don't know where you're at. If we don't know where we're at, we shouldn't really be throwing money into the pot.

On the flop... I don't think you realize what raising double the pot would be? Raising X amount means putting in the value of the call + X. So you want to raise double the pot: that would be putting in 6.5 BB plus 2x the value of the pot at that point, which would be 19.5BB, so a raise to 26BB... Sorry but that's just not going to be a good idea against what looks like a very strong range here.

If I'm check-raising the flop and checking the turn I'm lighting money on fire.
 
Yoshimiii

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Erm, 3betting 88 pre here is going to be a bit of a leak in most spots in the long run.

Having the best hand against the current range is not what makes raising +EV. We need to have a combination of enough folds and be good enough against his continuing range that we see profit. And while that may be true with 88 here, we have to play 88 in terms of a larger strategy. If I'm 3betting 88 here, I would also be 3betting 77-, and my 3bet range is suddenly exploding. If you wanna rewrite the book on 3betting, go for it, but personally I know I'm gonna be lighting money on fire if I start tossing small to medium pairs into my resteal range.

Also: he can't have 7x on the flop unless it's specifically 76s or 75s imo. He's not a maniac opening 100% of buttons... And every other 7 that might be in his range like 78s or 79s will NOT be potting it.

@ Yoshi: The reason I'm calling the turn is because he gives me a fantastic price and an overpair looks likely. A lot of players in his spot will struggle to fold an overpair even when a 4th straight card comes down.

@ Aces: You're kidding me, right? Raising to "see where you're at" will most likely be a mistake in most spots, because it means you don't actually know why you're betting (value vs. bluff). In other words you don't know where you're at. If we don't know where we're at, we shouldn't really be throwing money into the pot.

On the flop... I don't think you realize what raising double the pot would be? Raising X amount means putting in the value of the call + X. So you want to raise double the pot: that would be putting in 6.5 BB plus 2x the value of the pot at that point, which would be 19.5BB, so a raise to 26BB... Sorry but that's just not going to be a good idea against what looks like a very strong range here.

If I'm check-raising the flop and checking the turn I'm lighting money on fire.

Why can't villain be opening A/7 on BTN? I imagine that the villain opens his raising range on the BTN. Anyway yes you are probably beat on flop. Also I didn't say it was mandatory to 3bet 8/8 in SB, I just think that it's going to be alot easier 3 betting and cbetting a board with one overcard or less, if he calls than flat calling him OOP and having to call a cbet on a board if a highcard comes. Also I wouldn't 3 bet 7/7 there as often, I don't see why you have to 3 bet 7/7 just because you sometimes 3 bet 8/8?
I would still call him sometimes with 8/8 though.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Why can't villain be opening A/7 on BTN? anway yes you are probably beat on flop. Also I didn't say it was mandatory to 3bet 8/8 in SB, I just think that it's going to be alot easier 3 betting and cbetting a board with one overcard or less, if he calls than flat calling him OOP and having to call a cbet on a board if a highcard comes. Also I wouldn't 3 bet 7/7 there as often, I don't see why you have to 3 bet 7/7 just because you sometimes 3 bet 8/8?
I would still sometimes call him with 8/8 here.

Note that I didn't say he doesn't OPEN A7 otb. I said he doesn't POT any 7x unless it's 2pair.

My point was that we can't 3bet 88 for value because it is not a value hand against his Call v 3bet range. Therefore it's either a bluff or semibluff 3bet. Therefore there's no reason to do it with a PP that strong when we could do it with a weaker one.
 
JCgrind

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are you guys serious. this is 4NL. stack all day imo
 
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