$4 NLHE 6-max: QQ over pair getting action on draw heavy flop

hutz

hutz

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Merge Network $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2027196
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: $5.28
CO: $6.41
BTN: $5.32
SB: $8.97
BB: $4.00
Hero (UTG): $4.48

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is UTG with Q
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Q
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Hero raises to $0.12, 3 folds, SB calls $0.10, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.28) T
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9
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4
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(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.21, SB raises to $0.67, Hero raises... but what amount?

EDIT: Villain was a 30/18 type. However, he liked to defend the blinds by just calling as far as I could tell. Only have about 130 hands on him, but not much reraising out of the blinds.
 
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youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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I dont like raising until I know more about the villain. Stats?
 
hutz

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Ugh. My bad. I had a couple of tables open when I posted. But, since I made the mistake let's take a look at it two ways. I think I'd like to see how we'd react to different player types.

As played villain was a 30/18 type. However, he liked to defend the blinds by just calling as far as I could tell. Only have about 130 hands on him, but not much reraising out of the blinds.

But, what if this was a 50/8 type of player? Much more loose passive?
 
youregoodmate

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I doubt he's raising on a draw here so I still only like a call. We're in pos so still can get loads of value from 10x later on should he slow down.
 
hutz

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So you see no reason to play any differently depending on these two villain player types? I would think that we're way ahead here most of the time. Knowing that most players at this level don't fold their draws often enough, shouldn't I be willing to charge the draws now?
 
youregoodmate

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Like I said though hes probably not raising on a draw and if he is we can still charge him on the turn because he cant 'check back'. If hes not raising a draw a reraise will fold out 10x and keep in 910 and sets.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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I doubt he's raising on a draw here so I still only like a call. We're in pos so still can get loads of value from 10x later on should he slow down.

are we watching the same hand, have you seen that board?

he has a few semi bluffs + pure bluffs here and 3 sets.. 3betting makes him fold all his bluffs + semi bluffs.

flat and see a turn IP imo.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

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we agree on the move, I just said that he can have draws + worse hands here..
 
hutz

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It seems to me that there aren't a lot of turn cards that we would like to see.
 
youregoodmate

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we agree on the move, I just said that he can have draws + worse hands here..

I think draws are more unlikely given that villain is oop and at 4nl people dont often raise draws.

I def think 10x or even 9x are very frequent.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I think draws are more unlikely given that villain is oop and at 4nl people dont often raise draws.

I def think 10x or even 9x are very frequent.

You think that the players not raising draws are gonna raise 9x here? Not a chance in the world. Draws are prob more likely than most 10x even. He might raise AT, but doubt he raises KT, and definitely not lower Tx.
 
hutz

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I have to agree with Scourrge on his point. Also, I believe that most 4NL players don't have the discipline to fold their draws to a raise. In my experience they believe draws are ta nutz. Plus, this is a pretty good board to check/raise a habitual c-bettor like myself.

That's why I'm partial to raising. Do I raise to 1.50 ish looking to get it in on any non AKJ turn card? Is a shove appropriate given my assumptions of the player type? Are my assumptions completely off base?
 
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youregoodmate

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You think that the players not raising draws are gonna raise 9x here? Not a chance in the world. Draws are prob more likely than most 10x even. He might raise AT, but doubt he raises KT, and definitely not lower Tx.

A lot of micro players think theyve hit the nuts when they flop top pair. So 10x is not at all out of his range.
 
Matt Vaughan

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A lot of micro players think theyve hit the nuts when they flop top pair. So 10x is not at all out of his range.

You're being very inconsistent here.The types of players who will raise weak Tx here are the same players who will raise draws. Nor did I completely discount Tx. But if you think most micro players raise JT here without a FD, you are wrong. (And at first you included 9x too. Just not realistic.)

HOWEVER. I don't like raising either, because we narrow his range too much. Just flat and play the turn.
 
youregoodmate

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You're being very inconsistent here.The types of players who will raise weak Tx here are the same players who will raise draws. Nor did I completely discount Tx. But if you think most micro players raise JT here without a FD, you are wrong. (And at first you included 9x too. Just not realistic.)

HOWEVER. I don't like raising either, because we narrow his range too much. Just flat and play the turn.

I think you're overestimating the quality of play at the micros. 9x wouldnt raise very often but with the fishier players still might. 10x is still a big possibility, I've had many scenarios where a bad player had check raised me with a TPWK maybe because it is a drawyboard. Just because a player is prepared to raise when he hits doesnt mean hes prepared to when he flops a draw.

My statement was 'I doubt hes raising a draw'. This is because at the micros it is uncommon, mainly because players are so passive.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I think you're overestimating the quality of play at the micros. 9x wouldnt raise very often but with the fishier players still might. 10x is still a big possibility, I've had many scenarios where a bad player had check raised me with a TPWK maybe because it is a drawyboard. Just because a player is prepared to raise when he hits doesnt mean hes prepared to when he flops a draw.

My statement was 'I doubt hes raising a draw'. This is because at the micros it is uncommon, mainly because players are so passive.

I'm not overestimating play -> you're lumping player types together. The type of player to check-raise a draw-heavy board with TPWK is NOT a passive one.

You can't just say "he's a fish" and then assign whatever random properties to that label as you want. There are different types of fish. Some are aggro, some are not. Those raising Tx here will also raise draws frequently (especially combo draws, and there are a LOT of them here). Those who will not raise draws here aren't raising weak Tx.

You have to stay consistent in assigning tendencies to a player based on type. Tbf, OP did not give us much info on post flop tendencies of the villain, so it's difficult to type him. But I would think 30/18 likely indicates some postflop aggression too.

Yes MOST players at the micros are passive. Not all. Sweeping assumptions will only hurt us in spots like this.
 
hutz

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Tbf, OP did not give us much info on post flop tendencies of the villain, so it's difficult to type him.

True, but I did ask for options based on different player tendencies. Personally, I'm less apt to re-raise a 50/8 type player on this board when he check raises me. This villain, however....
 
Matt Vaughan

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It's close between calling and folding against a typical 50/8 type of player, because this is gonna be a set and two pair so often, but if you call it's easy to get away on the turn if aggression continues.

Against a 30/18, I'm not super excited about 3betting, because we're more likely to fold out his hands that have less equity against us like KT, and end up stacking off against hands that do really well against us like combo draws. Flush draw with a gutshot is prob never folding here, open-enders likely don't fold.
 
acky100

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really does depend on what kind of fish he is, if hes at all aggressive fish or just plain bad i much prefer just reraising an amount where we can shove any turn pretty easily and not feel bad about it on any cards or just shove outright, ive seen fish stack Tx all too often here and theres tons of draws on the flop, i dont think playing OOP on a lot of turn cards is gonna be great either if we just call but its ok, that said if hes the type to just bluff like a maniac you obv wanna call and call him down on most runouts
 
dsvw56

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There is not a single fish at 4NL that is capable of folding 10x here. And yes they will raise it, even passive ones on a board this drawy. Stop over analyzing simple situations. It's 4NL, he's a fish, we absolutely crush his range, and he wants to put money in the pot. Ship it, fist pump, GG.
 
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