$4 NLHE 6-max: OESD + FD on flop, deep stacks

mrmonkey

mrmonkey

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Villain is 45/8 over 38 hands (AFq: 67%)


Pacific Poker - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $1.60
BTN: $12.56
SB: $3.16
BB: $1.80
Hero (UTG): $7.46
MP: $0.89

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has J:diamond: K:diamond:

Hero raises to $0.14, fold, CO calls $0.14, BTN raises to $0.24, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.78, 3 players) 5:diamond: Q:spade: T:diamond:
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $0.78, Hero ???
 
dooydoo

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The villain is loose passive so typically when they 3bet they have a very strong holding. Although its a small sample we can assume because of the very large gap that the player will end up being about the same after a few 100 hands.

AFq doesnt mean anything in this sample and shouldnt be a factor in your decision making here too.

So when a loose passive 3bets pre and pots the flop they probably have a monster of some sort. Vs AK an QQ+ you are 50%. Vs QQ+ you are 47%.

They way hes playing i dont think you have fold equity and when you raise you obviously commit. Its not a bad spot considering youre about 50% to win so raising with the intention of getting it in would be ok.

Dont worry about the co player either. He has so few chips left that if you raise it wont deter him from going all in than if you just called.
 
mrmonkey

mrmonkey

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Lead the flop.

I was considering this alternative after the fact, mostly for pot control reasons and to possibly then call the resulting raise to see a turn rather than autocomitting to getting it in on the flop.

However, even if we play it this way I still think we are basically committed on the turn even if a blank turns up.

For the reasons dooydoo mentioned, I was pretty certain I was against AQ or QQ+ in this hand, and I agree there is zero fold equity and about 99% chance he is itching to get his stack in.

I guess this is just one of those hands you have to play as a coin toss? Is there any other way to garner more leverage? How about flatting the flop bet and letting a turn peel? I sort of feel with his range that even if I hit a flush or a straight (straight better than a flush) we get stacks in regardless... so could it make more sense to pot control the flop?
 
B

baudib1

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You lead the flop to trap the fish in between in and if he raises we can flat or stack and be pretty damn happy about it.

If you think he has AQ/QQ+ then fold pre but I'm guessing this is the range you put him on after the flop action.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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Damn baudib is on fire +1
 
mrmonkey

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If you think he has AQ/QQ+ then fold pre but I'm guessing this is the range you put him on after the flop action.

It's more the pot size bet on the flop that makes it certain -- the tiny preflop 3bet is pretty weird and doesn't narrow his range to that until he pots the flop -- I think he's also giving me good odds to see a flop considering stack sizes and the implied odds that a hand like KJs gives against hands like QQ+ which villains at this level almost never fold even against the wettest possible boards.

Good call on trapping the fish, even though his stack is so tiny getting him into the action may actually tip the odds slightly in my favor instead of it being just a coin toss if we stack off on the flop.

My thinking here though at the moment is that it is actually better to just pot control the flop and flat call his pot size bet on the flop. When there is no fold equity, there is no reason to just coin toss for stacks when the very good possibility exists that villain will still stack off even if 3 to a straight or flush show up on the turn or river. This way, if I hit, I'm still guaranteed to win 200bb, but if I don't hit I lose 75bb instead of 200bb.
 
S

Slow Roll Poker

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I would raise the $0.78 to about $3. If not, push all in.The odds are you will hit the diamond or a straight.
 
mrmonkey

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c9, what do you think about check/calling villain's flop bet or if leading flatting his raise?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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c9, what do you think about check/calling villain's flop bet or if leading flatting his raise?
Edit - I just realized this was 4NL. So yeah, our villain is going to be clueless. (I just deleted a big paragraph)

Anyways, what I wrote was that we essentially don't have a ton of implied odds here. The ace may kill our action, the 9 just looks like a bad card, and flushes are obvious. But at this level it probably doesn't matter.

I advocated donking the flop because it was the best way to accomplish all 3 of our goals: 1) trapping in the fish's money 2) disguising our hand 3) putting some money in while we have 50% equity in a 3-way pot.

I don't like bet/calling near as much as check/calling if you're not going to turn your draw into a semi-bluff. bet/calling just leaves very little money behind that we might as well go ahead and cram it in with a very strong line that might have some fold equity. Check/calling allows us to preserve our implied odds while still keeping the fish in, so I think I prefer that.

So idk, I don't think the difference between a donk/3-bet line and a check/call line are as obvious anymore since our opponents likely suck. But just a good general rule is that you play draws for implied odds in position, but play them as semibluffs out of position.
 
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