$4 NLHE 6-max: Was my line with an over pair too passive?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 19/14/2.1

Villain is 12/14/9/2.1

I planned to bet the turn and flop if I was checked to. His 3Bet range includes some combinations of AJs/KJs that could call a river bet... maybe TT looks me up as well. Overall I feel like I was a little too passive in this hand. By the river I had narrowed his range down to KK,AA,AdKd,JJ,AJ,KdJd,KdQd,AdQd Does this seem right? Should I have just shoved the turn?

Winning Poker Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $6.50
UTG: $7.75
Hero (CO): $11.72
BTN: $5.13
SB: $1.13

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q:spade: Q:club:

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.35, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.72, 2 players) 4:diamond: 9:diamond: J:club:
BB bets $0.46, Hero calls $0.46

Turn: ($1.64, 2 players) 3:spade:
BB bets $1.15, Hero calls $1.15

River: ($3.94, 2 players) 7:club:
BB checks, Hero checks

[spoil]BB shows A:diamond: K:diamond: (High Card, Ace) (Pre 46%, Flop 54%, Turn 34%)
Hero shows Q:spade: Q:club: (One Pair, Queens) (Pre 54%, Flop 46%, Turn 66%)
Hero wins $3.75
[/spoil]

If his range includes KJ, AJ like you said then checking back the river is bad. Shoving turn is also bad and results orientated.

Bet half pot.

I can understand you seeing a flop in position, but i think a 4 bet pre could also be considered. If we put him on the tight range then i would say we should be raising for value here, we are getting flush and straight draws to pay and value from AJ KJ... You also have to think that if an A, K or J come we are getting very little value from worse hands. However as played when we get to turn we shouldn't be jamming, as already stated a bet to 2.70-2.90 would get value from J's and charge a price for any remaining draws. On river we should be value betting, we are unlikely to get AK to call, but a small value bet of 1.50 may get a call from a 9 and KJ/QJ type hands.

Yeah I would be value beating at the river say 2-2.50. I believe Im ahead. If he has something decent he would call, adding, he even bet at the flop and turn.

You should 4bet preflop if you believe he has muck like AJ etc in his 3bet range. Do this at least to know where you stand.

So, he 3bets you preflop, then half bets the pot on the flop with a flush draw on the board? I don't like to see this type of thing. Why so rich preflop, and then so poor after the flop? It's very common for people to small cbet the flop hoping for just a call in draw situations like this. If they hit, they feel like the payoff will be worth the initial small flop bet.

Your QQ looks good now, but that image can so easily be shattered by the time the river comes. An A, K or suited card puts you in a difficult position should they appear on later streets and he starts playing really heavy bets.

Overpairs should be played strongly early on at the low stakes, in my opinion. Consider raising by 3x his small cbet on the flop. If he folds, then you have won his cbet also. If he calls, you now have crucial information that you could be in trouble very early in the hand (i.e. he has AA, KK or JJ). He would have to commit most or all of his stack on the next street because he is first to act, thus putting all the pressure on him if he was drawing and missed, or if he was bluffing.

I was worried about him having AA, KK, or JJ because I opened from the cut-off (I definitely 4bet QQ on the button) but also because up till this point I looked like a nit, playing about 16/12/2 with an AF of 2.4 and he was barreling into me anyway, the only hand on the flop I felt like I was ahead of was AdKd, and I'm not really ahead if I get it in. If I raise flop and he jams I feel like I'm folding there, especially given my image at that time.

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"I was worried about him having AA, KK, or JJ because I opened from the cut-off"

Okay that's fair enough, but as you say, he has AQ, AJ and possibly other marginal hands in his 3bet range. So he could have these in this situation too, and vs your QQ, you want more value from him.

It's a matter of personal preference, but I prefer to strong play JJ and QQ preflop against villains with > 6% 3bet %. The only reason I do is because these hands are so easily beaten post flop by overcards that I want the villain to pay to see the flop. I also want to know how interested he is in the hand too to see if he is playing like he has AA or KK. This is important information to have going into the flop, especially since he will be first to act there.

If he has AA or KK, he is likely going all in or raising and you fold, not losing any more bets. If he has AK vs your QQ, he likely folds, or calls 4bet, in which case he is paying a lot for blackjack odds. If an A or K is on the board, you will see him bet on the flop (and you can judge his bet sizing). If he misses then he must risk a substantial bet to convince you he is ahead.

You have the advantage all the way in this spot if you 4bet PF and if you see a flop.

Lmbeach said:

By the river I had narrowed his range down to KK,AA,AdKd,JJ,AJ,KdJd,KdQd,AdQd Does this seem right?

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If he has JJ, why didn't he bet the river? Checking might induce you to bet with QQ+, but were you going to fold those if he bet?

You can ask the same if he has AA KK. Yes, he might be afraid of a set, but if you have it, you'll bet, and is he going to fold, even to an allin? Seems unlikely. And if you have a hand that you'll check behind, he wins the same as if he bets and you fold, so why not give you a chance to call and lose more?

4 bet pre, raise flop bet and try to get it in on the turn imo

Shoving pre is fine.

Raising on the flop would be an idea since he could be on a draw or possible set? Info is good which you flat calling isn't giving you too much info except he's not really scared of you or fish or possibly you fold a lot and he's trying to do what he normally does and exploit your fold to bets. Remember you have QQ and defending, at this level most villains will pay you off with just top pair


Turn is unchanged and you flat calling just doesn't give you an idea where your at.

The river he's either setting you up so you bluff or he's scared of you because you've shown resistence... BET and he folds anyways he knows he's beat so... I normally see people overbetting here trying to get their value back which is a no no I think because you'd only get called when beat. I think if you at least bet 1/4-1/2 the pot you can entice a caller and make some money since you have QQ afterall so u got show down value.... Even if we reraises your raise you could happily call these guys play ATC or play funky crap at this level it still suprises me. (Don't be scared to raise when you think you have the best of it)


Hope it helps.

RedJeepWarrior said:

4 bet pre, raise flop bet and try to get it in on the turn imo

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Don't shove turn because you'll only get called when beat... We want people to come along with weaker hands.

This guy most likely would've called a shove pre which would've been justified with QQ

I think you could bet the river, in his range are hands like AJ, KJ and flush draw, betting the river is worthy and good for you!

jackaoliver said:

I can understand you seeing a flop in position, but i think a 4 bet pre could also be considered. If we put him on the tight range then i would say we should be raising for value here, we are getting flush and straight draws to pay and value from AJ KJ... You also have to think that if an A, K or J come we are getting very little value from worse hands. However as played when we get to turn we shouldn't be jamming, as already stated a bet to 2.70-2.90 would get value from J's and charge a price for any remaining draws. On river we should be value betting, we are unlikely to get AK to call, but a small value bet of 1.50 may get a call from a 9 and KJ/QJ type hands.

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How tight range increases value? Maybe wider range then I get. But AJ KJ isnt that much in his 3bet range isnt it? Thats too little hands actually to know his 3bet range.
I dont see too much people 3betting with QJ KJ cause its unprofitable itself. Even more OOP like this guy did.
I really dont mind checking river. And what 9-x hand you value on river? I just dont know what we value here. Really.

Aces2w1n said:

Shoving pre is fine.

Raising on the flop would be an idea since he could be on a draw or possible set? Info is good which you flat calling isn't giving you too much info except he's not really scared of you or fish or possibly you fold a lot and he's trying to do what he normally does and exploit your fold to bets. Remember you have QQ and defending, at this level most villains will pay you off with just top pair


Turn is unchanged and you flat calling just doesn't give you an idea where your at.

The river he's either setting you up so you bluff or he's scared of you because you've shown resistence... BET and he folds anyways he knows he's beat so... I normally see people overbetting here trying to get their value back which is a no no I think because you'd only get called when beat. I think if you at least bet 1/4-1/2 the pot you can entice a caller and make some money since you have QQ afterall so u got show down value.... Even if we reraises your raise you could happily call these guys play ATC or play funky crap at this level it still suprises me. (Don't be scared to raise when you think you have the best of it)


Hope it helps.

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I wanted to ask why shoving QQ is protitable? What hand do you expect to see on a 115bb pre all in against some unkown definately regular full buy in player? I mean you 4 bet right? he shoves you call? I know better players doing their shoves with AQ and AJ becouse of their big 3bets and 4bets against certain good players. But there we expect nothing but AA KK even not AK if we shove and get called or he shoves and we call.

The first post has a slight error in it, the Villain is 19/14/9 AF 2.1 over 449 hands. What stands out to me is that steal attempt is only 22%.


**********************I typed whats below, then found out some new information included at the end of this post****
After reading over this and thinking about the hand more I've come up with this:

A lot of people are saying to value bet the river in case he has AJ/KJ/QJ, etc. I really don't think he is 3 betting these then playing like he has the nuts just because he has top pair (I would expect this vs a 30+/20+/9+), also, even if he did 3 bet these regularly, does he really 3! these OOP vs. a non-button open? What about against an UTG open? My decision to 3! definitely depends on my position vs villain vs Vs overall range/image. I don't have a ton of history with this villain (450 hands), but my feeling is that the spots he 3!s AJ/KJ/QJ are in position against a bad player to play heads up with the initiative. That's what I'd do. I wish when PT4 makes a note of when they 3! 'light' it would include what position it was from.

The flop bet felt weird even when he made it, and I think his plan was to check raise all in if I raise, and otherwise, if I called, I was allowing him a good price to draw while allowing him to fire a good sized bet on the turn to shake free TT and some Js while he still has decent equity. If I did raise the flop I don't think this guy is ever turning a J into a bluff here and we are folding to another raise on the flop. He took his sweet time with his bet, it wasn't just a no-brainer 'I raised so let me follow through with it' raise. I think this is what set off my alarm bells - I remember thinking the flop bet smelled funny.

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Ok, I was digging into the Villain some more, I must have my HUD filtering to only the stake I'm playing at, because I have over 3k hands with this guy. His 3k stats are 17.25/13.57/4.38. He is a long term loosing player and I think must have just stepped down in stakes. Given this new information, does my line look better?

Calling with position is fine. I'd personally prefer that to keep his weaker range in. As played, raise the turn unless you feel like you're folding to most river bets. If your plan is call turn, call river, then you need good information to know someone is aggressive enough to triple with air or over value their hands (which isn't the case here).

As played, bet river. If they check, it's usually for a reason. He's c/fing or c/cing and there's a lot of worse hands he might call with Jx, TT, 9x, etc...

Aces2w1n said:

Don't shove turn because you'll only get called when beat... We want people to come along with weaker hands.

This guy most likely would've called a shove pre which would've been justified with QQ

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There are plenty of fish out there who stack of with top pair at 4nl. If he takes the line I suggest I think getting it in is the right move