$4 NLHE 6-max: KK vs donk bet on scary flop

blueskies

blueskies

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/21/3.5

Villain (UTG+1) raises to 14c. I (UTG+2) reraise to 48c. Folds around to Villain who calls.

Flop is AdAhQd. He donk bets 68c into $1.02 pot.

I have $3.20 left. He has me covered.

I fold. I only had 20 hands of history against him so I didn't have a good feel either way.

Should I have called and see what he does on the turn?
 
LD1977

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I play 2nl FR, someone with his stats is doing this with something like AK, AQs+, JJ+ so if he donks into you after just calling the preflop reraise I have to think he has the Ace here and quite likely AQs (QQ has to consider you might have AA or AQs). In any case you are drawing completely dead unless he is stupid enough to donk this with JJ.

Edit: Actually on 2nd thought WTF is he donking here for? Strange. Maybe he has AQ and fears you have AK and will suck out on him? :D
 
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youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Call, re-evaluate the turn. There are still loads of shit hands in his range.
 
LD1977

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What kind of info can you possibly get on the turn?
 
C

con1

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I would call, if he had an A here he would either check or value bet here to try and max his EV for the hand the fact he bet that much on the turn tells me he has a low poket pair or some kind of draw and he is trying to get you off the hand by reping the flop
 
vinylspiros

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I would call, if he had an A here he would either check or value bet here to try and max his EV for the hand the fact he bet that much on the turn tells me he has a low poket pair or some kind of draw and he is trying to get you off the hand by reping the flop
i totally agree with you here.thats my exact thought process. BUT ! imagine if he knows that by him betting it,it looks like a bluff is a genius move. many times i have AK ,i raise and the villain calls. if i know this guy has a hand and the flop comes AA5 for example i will fire one good bet on the flop (DONK INTO IT) hoping that it looks super bluffy and the guy flat calls me. then when the turn comes out i will think a bit and then check making it look like my bluff failed. now two things might happen here.1 the villain checks behind because he has showdown value with pocket jacks or queens OR he reps the ace himself because he is on some kind of draw or smthng so he bets.thats when i call and trap and when he misses his draw on the river and u check again on the river he most likely is going to blast strong at it so thats how u get value from hands like that alot of the time.
 
vinylspiros

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/21/3.5

Villain (UTG+1) raises to 14c. I (UTG+2) reraise to 48c. Folds around to Villain who calls.

Flop is AdAhQd. He donk bets 68c into $1.02 pot.

I have $3.20 left. He has me covered.

I fold. I only had 20 hands of history against him so I didn't have a good feel either way.

Should I have called and see what he does on the turn?
this is one of those situations that really suck. my advice: call one bet to keep him honest.your call here is worrying enough.if he shoves on the turn let it go.
 
youregoodmate

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What kind of info can you possibly get on the turn?

Well in Poker you get an option to check or bet when you are first to act, see which one he does.
 
blueskies

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Thanks for the thoughts guys. After this hand, he turned out to be more aggressive than the 3.5 AF so he could have made this play with something like KQ or just a medium pair. Could also have had stuff like AT/AJ though. I didn't see enough him showdown enogh to tell how frequently he was BS'ing.

All things considered, I think I should've played stronger and called.

It was a bad night, I had been outdrawn a few times. I let some previous bad luck influence my thinking there.
 
Tropwen

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At first I saw all those stats were low for only 20 hands so I figured he had an ace why else would he raise UTG with anything else than a high ace, high pocket pair, but then he bets into you out of position? No one would do that after floping a monster so at best I say a Qx or a flush draw and betting out cuz he doesn't like that flop as much as u, maybe he could have a smaller pocket pair which would be great :D BUT this is a sketchy situation so I understand leaning toward folding but this is still a very winable pot

Me personally would call to float the turn and see what he does and if he keeps playing this aggressively considering his stats I would lean to fold
 
MisterLongFace

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without giving an opinion on whether you are behind or ahead here post flop, I would say that whatever you decide, it needs to be decided on the flop.

calling the flop bet means you should call any subsequent bets and you should realize that if you call the flop bet here, they will most assuredly continue firing, and if they do so, they could be doing it from ahead or behind, you really need to decided which on the flop. to call that bet size into that pot size on the flop and then actually fold or even possibly fold after is just a horrible play in my opinion.
 
vinylspiros

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without giving an opinion on whether you are behind or ahead here post flop, I would say that whatever you decide, it needs to be decided on the flop.

calling the flop bet means you should call any subsequent bets and you should realize that if you call the flop bet here, they will most assuredly continue firing, and if they do so, they could be doing it from ahead or behind, you really need to decided which on the flop. to call that bet size into that pot size on the flop and then actually fold or even possibly fold after is just a horrible play in my opinion.
i disagree because many times they shut down after one call on a flop like that. the reason he might have donk betted was to see what kind of reaction he would get assuming that he might have had an underpair or a draw. now the hero cant reraise here because that would certainly look fishy but if hero just calls, he can use position to his advantage and decide after villain acts on turn. thing is you must definitely make the call on the flop for floating purposes and also you could catch your third king as well.you cant win by folding peoples donk bets when you have an actual holding regardless of what the flop is. if hero had absolutely nothing ,then definitely a fold.
 
bz54321

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I am guessing the vil was on a flush draw. My line is if I can beat the other card(paired in vil hand) on a paired flop then I will normally go for it.

I have seen people over bet flush draws a lot in micro games.
 
LD1977

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After there was a preflop reraiser and he sees AAQ board?

Surely quads/full house >>> any flush.

People I play against are really not THAT stupid, if anything they are too scared of such things.
 
vinylspiros

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After there was a preflop reraiser and he sees AAQ board?

Surely quads/full house >>> any flush.

People I play against are really not THAT stupid, if anything they are too scared of such things.
u call it stupid, i think its genius sometimes. and how is it so surely QUADS and fullhouse? are those hands you see every day just cause someone donk bet into a pot? im not disagreeing with you totally;im just trying to point out that in poker SURELY is a word that is overrated.;)
 
bz54321

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No way he had quads and i highly doubt they had a full house.

That would be a really wacky bet with either of those hands.

Maybe should have called it off so we could see the outcome op. :)
 
WVHillbilly

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That's not a horrible or even particularly scary flop imo. You have position and he's only bet 1/2 pot. I call.
 
LD1977

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You misunderstood.

I am saying that someone with merely a flush draw is not going to donk into a preflop reraiser (who has AA, QQ, AQ all in his range) with such a scary board.

So, the donker does not have a flush draw.
 
blueskies

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An update on this guy. Now I have 60 hands of history on him, 35/28/5.0

3bet% is 16 and fold to 3bet% is a mere 25. STL% is 43 an fold to steal is 50.

Had I had these stats on him last night, I would have called the flop for sure and probably call him down.

I am thinking now he had a Q.
 
bz54321

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I am thinking now he had a Q.

So this is what i meant by my other comment. Thinking he paired the card that was not paired with the board or he has less than that.

Flops with a pair in them are usually good to bluff at because like LD1977 mentioned most people get scared by them. Also they are less likely to have connected with only two cards rather than 3 on the board. Also all straights and flushes will at best be on a draw with a paired flop.
 
vinylspiros

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So this is what i meant by my other comment. Thinking he paired the card that was not paired with the board or he has less than that.

Flops with a pair in them are usually good to bluff at because like LD1977 mentioned most people get scared by them. Also they are less likely to have connected with only two cards rather than 3 on the board. Also all straights and flushes will at best be on a draw with a paired flop.
these are really good points you made here. i agree.
 
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