$4 NLHE 6-max: I tried to iso with 8Ts and failed. Turn decision

bgomez89

bgomez89

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $11.68
BB: $4.59
UTG: $2.62
MP: $6.20
Hero (CO): $5.00
BTN: $4.10

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 8:club: T:club:

UTG calls $0.05, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, BTN calls $0.20, fold, BB calls $0.15, UTG calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.82, 4 players) K:club: 7:diamond: 4:club:
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.82, 4 players) 9:spade:
BB bets $0.40, fold, Hero calls $0.40, BTN raises to $1.00, BB calls $0.60, Hero ???

ok so I don't know if isolating here is ok or not but I did it.

here's stats:
BB(30 hands) 36/13/41 afq
BTN i have only 15 hands so no reads really.

I didn't bet the flop because i felt someone could easily have a K and would raise to which i fold to, so i decided to try a check/call but it checked behind. On the turn I know I probably should've raised BB's bet but i guess I didn't feel i had fold equity if he had the K and would rather just call and hopefully hit the river. Also i felt that maybe if I call it would induce the btn to call and help build the pot.

Now that the BTN raises and BB just calls, is it time for me to shove or should I still just call?
 
T

TorreyB

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I'd go with a call. You have a massive combo draw possible and the BTN's turn raise put enough money in the pot for you to shove the river. Calling instead of shoving could save you a couple bucks if the river card ends up a blank for you.

I sure hope that the river ended up completing your straight, it kind of stinks your flush draw is only T high and these two villain's are going nutty over this board.
 
WVHillbilly

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I think isoing here is fine but bet the flop. Your equity is good and getting ch/raised is pretty unlikely. As played call and bink a 6. :)
 
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Stu_Ungar

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Call, you don't have FE so it's more profitable.



Well, if you go with play as many hands against the fish as I can route, T8s IP is a good one imo.

Firstly You are not in postion.

Second Hands like this require some post flop FE and you dont have it. Any flop that looks good to you will also look good to your opponents over cards range.

Third, you have ten high. Likely your opponents hand is actually better than your own in this case.

Fourth you dont have massive implied odds. Its likely your opponent will not want to play for stacks should you hit nor want to fold if you dont. It sounds like a contradiction but it simply means you cant really get value when you hit (stacks in) nor feel comfortable getting thin value when you get a piece of the flop.
 
bgomez89

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If they won't pay us off of we call and hit then shouldn't we shove now with our big draw?
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Firstly You are not in postion.

Second Hands like this require some post flop FE and you dont have it. Any flop that looks good to you will also look good to your opponents over cards range.

Third, you have ten high. Likely your opponents hand is actually better than your own in this case.

Fourth you dont have massive implied odds. Its likely your opponent will not want to play for stacks should you hit nor want to fold if you dont. It sounds like a contradiction but it simply means you cant really get value when you hit (stacks in) nor feel comfortable getting thin value when you get a piece of the flop.

You are right about position, but if the button is tight it should be raised I reckon.

Do you really think this hand doesn't have massive implied odds? At 5NL of all places?

It depends on who the villains are, can't be discussed in a vacuum. but if there are players that go showdown 40-50% then it's a shame not to try and hit a monster.

If villain(s) are fit or fold fish, then you have good FE which is good for this hand.

Those 2 categories are quite possible to find at 5NL, it's the middle ground that can cause problems as usual. What I like to do in this situation is to raise really small, like 3bbs instead of iso-ing to make for a family pot with great implied odds while investing little. What do you think about that?
 
Stu_Ungar

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Why would the button be tight in a game filled with overly loose players?

Implied odds dosent just mean that a player has the ability to stack off it means he has the ability to stack off almost every time he plays. Implied odds come from overly tight or overly agressive players. This game is filed with loose passive players.

Changes are the one time you make a big hand is the one time he wnt stack.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think isoing here is fine but bet the flop. Your equity is good and getting ch/raised is pretty unlikely. As played call and bink a 6. :)

Your equity isnt good.

Chances are villian has the best hand, thus forcing you into fit or fold.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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07 01 2011 SNAG  00

These are all of the hands that are ahead of you prefop.

Sure we can isolate wide but T8s is too wide in a game yo dont expect to have much in the way of fold equity.
 
WVHillbilly

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Your equity isnt good.

Chances are villian has the best hand, thus forcing you into fit or fold.

Villain may have the best hand but he's much more likely to play fit or fold than I am when I have the initiative. I mean when we iso this the BTN is going to fold the vast majority of the time. That didn't happen here and that has made our hand more difficult to play but that doesn't mean that isoing in the 1st place is wrong imo. Most of the time the BTN folds, the fishy BB calls and UTG calls with his small pp / suited Ax and we win the pot on the flop with a cbet.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Why do you want to isolate with such a weak hand?

Not can you, why do you?

Because this is hand that when we hit can rarely be value bet and the key to beating these stakes is to value bet.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Villain may have the best hand but he's much more likely to play fit or fold than I am when I have the initiative. I mean when we iso this the BTN is going to fold the vast majority of the time. That didn't happen here and that has made our hand more difficult to play but that doesn't mean that isoing in the 1st place is wrong imo. Most of the time the BTN folds, the fishy BB calls and UTG calls with his small pp / suited Ax and we win the pot on the flop with a cbet.

Actually the cbet plan is unlikey to work.

on a board we feel comfortable cbetting, villian is unlikely to fold Ax

So we have put ourselves into a fit or fold position
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Why do you want to isolate with such a weak hand?

Not can you, why do you?

Because this is hand that when we hit can rarely be value bet and the key to beating these stakes is to value bet.

Because we'll have more than enough equity (FE + actual equity) against an UTG limp/call range to make it +EV? People do still fold to cbets with air at 5nl right? I mean we could probably be profitable doing it with 27o and T8s is at least slightly stronger than that.
 
WVHillbilly

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Actually the cbet plan is unlikey to work.

on a board we feel comfortable cbetting, villian is unlikely to fold Ax

So we have put ourselves into a fit or fold position

OOP villains don't call cbets with A high.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Because we'll have more than enough equity (FE + actual equity) against an UTG limp/call range to make it +EV? People do still fold to cbets with air at 5nl right? I mean we could probably be profitable doing it with 27o and T8s is at least slightly stronger than that.

You simply dont have as much FE at these stakes as you are estimating.

You need some high card value.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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These guys dont know how to play poker so why assume they will make rational decisions?

Well if that's true our hand goes up in actual value since we'll obviously be very well compensated when we do hit.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Well if that's true our hand goes up in actual value since we'll obviously be very well compensated when we do hit.

Our most likely hand is a pair of 8's or T's which can certainly be bet for value, but the types of hands villian will peel us with have around 25% equity, thus reducing the value of our hand.

Basically we are forcing ourselves to play the hand in a bigger pot than it usually can for value.
 
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TorreyB

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You simply dont have as much FE at these stakes as you are estimating.

You need some high card value.

There's close to no fold equity at 5NL @ pokerstars when playing villain's that are VPIP of ~35+. You're right about the high card value. These guys call down almost anything and having that high card value really seals the deal, but I still think he played this hand good given the post flop circumstances and his equity.

Another point regarding the table dynamic and hand selection is that when you going to be in position and raising a limper and there is still more fishy types to act after you, you'll have to tighten your range just a little bit more. Hands like 8Ts will have a higher chance of being dominated. You'd most likely want to move that up to a JTs+.
 
bgomez89

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Firstly You are not in postion.

Second Hands like this require some post flop FE and you dont have it. Any flop that looks good to you will also look good to your opponents over cards range.

Third, you have ten high. Likely your opponents hand is actually better than your own in this case.

Fourth you dont have massive implied odds. Its likely your opponent will not want to play for stacks should you hit nor want to fold if you dont. It sounds like a contradiction but it simply means you cant really get value when you hit (stacks in) nor feel comfortable getting thin value when you get a piece of the flop.

If they won't pay us off of we call and hit then shouldn't we shove now with our big draw?
???
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Firstly You are not in postion.

Second Hands like this require some post flop FE and you dont have it. Any flop that looks good to you will also look good to your opponents over cards range.

Third, you have ten high. Likely your opponents hand is actually better than your own in this case.

Fourth you dont have massive implied odds. Its likely your opponent will not want to play for stacks should you hit nor want to fold if you dont. It sounds like a contradiction but it simply means you cant really get value when you hit (stacks in) nor feel comfortable getting thin value when you get a piece of the flop.

Quoting this again for some advice, for me and whomever else reads this, if you want to take the time. Lately I've been trying to play more hands vs bad players, but I might be over-doing it. Not any 2 cards, but suited, connectors, any broadway and high cards. So, where to draw the line?

Say on the button against a common loose passive that folds 30% to flop cbets, goes to SD a lot and you really don't want to double barrel bluff him even with equity.

Is Kxs ok? What about Qxs? J5s is too loose even for me I guess. What about connectors? Say you have 65o, do you open them? How much of the button range do you drop while in the CO?

Just looking for some idea of where the bottom of my range in this situation should be to start going from there...
 
forsakenone

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i really like the c bet line here. you would be amazed how many pots you can take on the flop at these stakes. sure someone can have a K, and they might not fold to a c-bet, but if nobody has a K you probably take it down since a scare card is a scare card to them too, and if that doesn't work we still have a flush draw that hits a decent amount of time with a slightly bigger pot making it easier to stack of a guy with a K in his hand.
 
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