$4 NLHE 6-max: Can I call the river here?

J

Jonny03UK

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 52/8/64

Just wanted to get a line check on this hand and advice on the river. I'm not always too sure about how to play pocket pairs and thinking perhaps I could have made a small bet on the turn as well?

After the fish called my flop bet I wasn't too bothered but having the tight player call it as well put me on edge about the King on the turn.

What really bothers me about the hand is that the fishy player checks both the flop and turn and makes a 3/4 pot bet on the river. It's not the first time I saw him do it either. He checked two streets and bet a 3/4 or pot size bet on the river a couple of times before making me think he's just trying to scare others off. Perhaps he was doing it this hand but I just can't come to that decision. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps he hit two pair or somehow a straight with that river card. Or maybe just hit a King on the turn and checked it as for some reason plenty of fish do...

Whatever it was, is there any way I can call that bet or do I have to accept defeat on that one?

Player1 (UTG): $4.82 (stats: 15/12/34 over 320 hands)
Player3 (CO): $0.96
Player6 (BTN): $4.94
Player8 (SB): $5.95 (stats:52/8/64 over 50 hands)
Hero (BB): $5.00

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is BB with J
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J
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Player1 raises to $0.14, 2 folds, Player8 calls $0.12, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.42) T
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2
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4
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(3 players)
Player8 checks, Hero bets $0.36, Player1 calls $0.36, Player8 calls $0.36

Turn: ($1.50) K
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(3 players)
Player8 checks, Hero checks, Player1 checks

River: ($1.50) 3
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(3 players)
Player8 bets $1.12, Hero folds, Player1 folds
 
Last edited:
acky100

acky100

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I'm calling, think about the fishes range for getting to the river like this, also think about how his flop action might make us even happier about calling, off to bed now but im sure someone will elaborate.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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I dont feel he has a 10 here very often, fish love to lose value with 2nd pair so I think he would check it. He seems very polarised here and hes doing this w/ a busted FD etc often enough to make a call profitable. I like a call but he probably shows up with a K a decent amount so I dont think a fold is really bad.
 
Deco

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3bet pre, jj crushes the 52vpips calling range, fold if the nit 4bets you.

He seems very polarised here and hes doing this w/ a busted FD etc often enough to make a call profitable.

Ditto.
He's a fish so even multiway he will flat some overcards on the flop but even this guy will have folded some of his weaker kings whilst all his suited junk remains.
 
S

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What K is in his range? He just called pre, so he might have something stupid like K7s or K9, but that seems to me to be the extent of his K's and is he really calling with that on the flop? I mean I guess he could have Kx of hearts, but if so why is he not betting the turn? I think he has a weak 10 or a missed FD. I say call all day.
 
John A

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5 handed and out of position you should raise JJ for value most of the time. You want to get heads up against the bad players range here.

As played, bet turn, and call river.
 
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Jonny03UK

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5 handed and out of position you should raise JJ for value most of the time. You want to get heads up against the bad players range here.

As played, bet turn, and call river.

You'd advise 3betting Jacks OOP every time?
 
John A

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You'd advise 3betting Jacks OOP every time?

I'd rarely advise to do something every time. In this situation however, you're going to be in the sandwiched position post flop plus your range is crushing the fishes ranges who will still likely call with a weaker range and you can then get it heads up against them instead of multi-way in a weak post flop position.
 
J

Jonny03UK

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I'd rarely advise to do something every time. In this situation however, you're going to be in the sandwiched position post flop plus your range is crushing the fishes ranges who will still likely call with a weaker range and you can then get it heads up against them instead of multi-way in a weak post flop position.

Sorry yeah, I more meant you'd advise doing it against fishy opponents every time or if not every time then the majority of the time. Worded that response pretty wrong, sorry about that! haha
 
TheseNutsWin

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3bet pre, jj crushes the 52vpips calling range, fold if the nit 4bets you.



Ditto.
He's a fish so even multiway he will flat some overcards on the flop but even this guy will have folded some of his weaker kings whilst all his suited junk remains.

Is 3betting JJ from the BB vs UTG opener (15/12) really a good idea? 15/12 in a 6max is damn nitty. I hate these spots because it's hard to figure out why are we raising? Value or bluff vs UTG? And if we are folding to 4bets (since we would be behind quite a lot ) why turn JJ into a bluff? Also, why not keep the huge SB fish in the pot? We have position on him. If you could explain it would be great, I'm certain I'm not the only one who finds these type of spots tricky.
 
Deco

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Is 3betting JJ from the BB vs UTG opener (15/12) really a good idea? 15/12 in a 6max is damn nitty. I hate these spots because it's hard to figure out why are we raising? Value or bluff vs UTG? And if we are folding to 4bets (since we would be behind quite a lot ) why turn JJ into a bluff? Also, why not keep the huge SB fish in the pot? We have position on him. If you could explain it would be great, I'm certain I'm not the only one who finds these type of spots tricky.

Were 3betting utg as a bluff and the fish for value.

I'd hate 3betting an utg nit with jj here hu, against him. However although turning jj in to a bluff vs a nit is a meh play 3betting it for value vs the fish is printing money.

Most the time he will fold. Ak/QQ+ is 2.5% of hands, if he only opens 10% of hands utg he's either folding or continuing with worse 75% of the time. (more likely the latter). If the nit continues proceed with caution ak/qq+ are likely to flat to keep the fish in.

I'm also 3betting AJ/AQ/TT/KQ/ATs/KJs here.
 
TheseNutsWin

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Were 3betting utg as a bluff and the fish for value.

I'd hate 3betting an utg nit with jj here hu, against him. However although turning jj in to a bluff vs a nit is a meh play 3betting it for value vs the fish is printing money.

Most the time he will fold. Ak/QQ+ is 2.5% of hands, if he only opens 10% of hands utg he's either folding or continuing with worse 75% of the time.

I'm also 3betting AJ/AQ/TT/KQ/ATs/KJs here.

So you're 3betting as a bluff and are not going to stack off (if called by the nit) if you hit TP with any of the listed hands (I'm guessing). We would need some positional stats to see if it's really about 10% of hands he is opening from UTG. If his total is 12% I doubt he opens 10% from UTG unless he doesn't understand position at all and keeps his range the same for every spot. Your play works out great if nit folds and SB calls the 3bet so I guess it should be a +EV play. But if his UTG opening range would be less than 5% would you still 3bet him?
 
Deco

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But if his UTG opening range would be less than 5% would you still 3bet him?

No but I don't think I've ever seen someone open UTG that tight. Even then it's only 40% of his hands we're scared off, but being out of position and having QQ+ flat us is too big of a price to pay.

I can't see his range being any tighter than 8%, in which case I still 3bet. Our 3bet bluff vs him doesn't need to be +EV as the money we make stacking the fish more than makes up for it.
 
John A

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Is 3betting JJ from the BB vs UTG opener (15/12) really a good idea? 15/12 in a 6max is damn nitty. I hate these spots because it's hard to figure out why are we raising? Value or bluff vs UTG? And if we are folding to 4bets (since we would be behind quite a lot ) why turn JJ into a bluff? Also, why not keep the huge SB fish in the pot? We have position on him. If you could explain it would be great, I'm certain I'm not the only one who finds these type of spots tricky.

Most nits are going to open more than 5% UTG if their opening rate is 12%. 5 handed, it's going to at least be 7%+. Plus nits are going to fold some hands you're flipping against like AQo. You're 3-betting for value with the goal of getting heads up against the fish.
 
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