$4 NLHE 6-max: Can I call the raise on turn

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puke

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Can I call the raise on turn? Is the implied odd enough

Merge, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP: $5.54 (138.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $4 (100 bb)
BTN: $3.25 (81.3 bb)
SB: $4.06 (101.5 bb)
BB: $4.23 (105.8 bb)
UTG: $6.40 (160 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K
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T
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2 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, BB calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.26) 9
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8
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5
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(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.26) 7
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(2 players)
BB bets $0.17, Hero raises to $0.47, BB raises to $1.27, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($2.80) J
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(2 players)
BB bets $2.84 and is all-in,
 
Deco

Deco

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Fold the turn very fast. Your outs aren't clean you could have as little as zero equity, Your straight outs are rarely good here. Your flush outs may already be dead to Ah flushes which defo stack you when you hit. Weaker flushes or a very rare set or straight can certainly fold.

Non-nut 1card draws rarely have any implied odds. Especially vs a turn 3bet.
 
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baudib1

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Fold the turn very fast. Your outs aren't clean you could have as little as zero equity, Your straight outs are rarely good here. Your flush outs may already be dead to Ah flushes which defo stack you when you hit. Weaker flushes or a very rare set or straight can certainly fold.

Non-nut 1card draws rarely have any implied odds. Especially vs a turn 3bet.

This, I have a hard time folding TBH.
 
Reptar7

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EV based on IO = (odds to win * what you would win) - (odds you lose * price to call) = (.25 * 8) - (.75 * .8) = 2 - .6 = $1.4 > $0.80

The above shows that if the sort of best case scenario plays out for you and he doesn't have a str8 or a flush or an over pair or the ace of hearts, then yes, you would have implied odds (also only after you played the hand the way you did up to the turn call decision).

Do you really think he is reraising $1 on the turn without a straight or flush? I mean, he could be misplaying some hand like Ah or a set or overpair, but he still has you crushed then. You should probably fold to the first turn bet, or at least just call it.
 
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puke

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Maybe I miss consider the possible that he has a str. I should call it.
I found myself can not stop semibluff. I probably play too aggressive

Do you really think he is reraising $1 on the turn without a straight or flush? I mean, he could be misplaying some hand like Ah or a set or overpair, but he still has you crushed then. You should probably fold to the first turn bet, or at least just call it.
 
Reptar7

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I probably play too aggressive

Playing tight and aggressive from position is good in general, but in this position the villain's range is fairly polarized to only a few hands, imo. You didn't say how the villain was playing or if you had any info, that might change it.

BTW, if you aren't using a HUD (Heads Up Display) like Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker, I would strongly suggest it. They work on Merge.
 
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puke

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I have that. But I only have like 60 hands with this guy, so I am not sure if it is reliable. 24/16 seems very aggressive, especially the turn

Playing tight and aggressive from position is good in general, but in this position the villain's range is fairly polarized to only a few hands, imo. You didn't say how the villain was playing or if you had any info, that might change it.

BTW, if you aren't using a HUD (Heads Up Display) like Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker, I would strongly suggest it. They work on Merge.
 
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baudib1

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Judging by this and the A2o hand, you are definitely not too aggressive, you are just being spewy and looking at the cards in front of your face instead of considering what your opponent's range is and how he will respond to your actions, etc.
 
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baudib1

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Playing tight and aggressive from position is good in general, but in this position the villain's range is fairly polarized to only a few hands, imo. You didn't say how the villain was playing or if you had any info, that might change it.

Villain's range is totally depolarized IMO.
 
Reptar7

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Saying opposite would be saying a good % of time he is bluffing in this hand, which he is NEVER.

Um, what? This isn't what polarization is in my understanding. For me, and I guess I have thought this because of 2p2, polarization is when a villain narrows there own range down to a distinct subset of hands, along with the inverse of that subset. In this situation, that means he has a flush or straight.

Why would saying his range is polarized imply that he is bluffing "a good % of time?"
 
bgomez89

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polarized=either pure bluffs or nuts
depolarized= value
 
Reptar7

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polarized=either pure bluffs or nuts
depolarized= value

From Duh, Pooh-Bah, 2p2:

I don't like any of the definitions provides thus far.

Range polarization refers to a range in which all hands fall into one of two distinct subsets, with no hands existing outside of these subsets. Typically the subsets are of inverse strength (nuts/air), but not necessarily.

Examples of polarized ranges that are of similar strength.
1) Nuts/thin value
2) thin value/air
2) Draw/air


Furthermore, often times we misuse the term polarized to describe a range that has 3 subsets rather than 2. The concept is the same, except for having one more 'type' of hand to consider.

For example:
1) Nuts/Thin Value/Air
2) Thin Value/Value bluff/air


Either way, when an opponent (through his actions) groups his entire hand range into only 2 (or 3) types of hands it becomes extremely easy to exploit that player. This is because making EV based decisions is much simpler when having to consider only 2 hand strengths, rather than a wide range of hand strengths.

eg... we can play much more optimally when opponents polarize, and in fact many players will argue that forcing opponents into polarizing is the key to NL holdem, and many other poker games


Related to this subject is the concept of "balancing". While a topic for another thread, it is important to know that balancing is the practice of widening your range so as not to polarize yourself. Basically, you make sure that for any given action, your range is wider than only two types of hands.

For example, when your river shove can be for thin value, as well as nuts or air, then your opponent has a much more difficult decision, and he has to play guessing games as your range is wide. Compare this to situations when your opponent knows you're polarized, he just has to decide if you have the nuts or not. He plays perfectly, and you are toast.


Edit to add: Polarizing and Balancing apply preflop as well, and should not discounted. Many players polarize preflop wihtout realizing it (even winning regs), and great players reap heavy profit from these mistakes. For example, when your cold calling range preflop is PP's and SC' only, you will be manhandled by aggressive 3bettors and squeezers. Or, if your 3betting range is polarized to AK or JJ+ (typical), your opponents will be able to play perfectly against you in a huge pot.

The point is, a player can polarize their hand at any time, on any street. The winning players are those who can recognize and extract value from the players who polarize too frequently, and players who don't realized they are polarized at all.
 
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baudib1

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From Duh, Pooh-Bah, 2p2:

I don't like any of the definitions provides thus far.

Range polarization refers to a range in which all hands fall into one of two distinct subsets, with no hands existing outside of these subsets. Typically the subsets are of inverse strength (nuts/air), but not necessarily.

The important part is bolded. You are misapplying the term.
 
Reptar7

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The important part is bolded. You are misapplying the term.

ahhhh, but why? i dont understand, explain further please...

are we actually disagreeing over the meaning of polarized ranges, or just that you think he is depolarized based on that 24/16 stat, which I didn't have at the point when I said it looked like he could only have a straight or flush.
 
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baudib1

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ahhhh, but why? i dont understand, explain further please...

are we actually disagreeing over the meaning of polarized ranges, or just that you think he is depolarized based on that 24/16 stat, which I didn't have at the point when I said it looked like he could only have a straight or flush.

No, I think he only has a straight or flush, weighted heavily toward a flush and very often the nut flush = depolarized.

Polarized would mean he has a bunch of hands he takes this line with that include 0 equity hands, semibluffs that he continues with on the turn.

A merged range would mean he has the nuts and a bunch of middling value hands.
 
Reptar7

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No, I think he only has a straight or flush, weighted heavily toward a flush and very often the nut flush = depolarized.

Polarized would mean he has a bunch of hands he takes this line with that include 0 equity hands, semibluffs that he continues with on the turn.

A merged range would mean he has the nuts and a bunch of middling value hands.

After this discussion I have read alot about depolarized ranges on 2p2, deucescracked, and some other places. It seems like most places think it's kind of like polarized, but includes some mediocre and value hands, whereas polarized is the nuts or air. I still don't really understand. I feel like I am getting dumber. And then lots of depolarized threads bring up triple range merge, uhhhhhh. My head hurts. There seems to be a lot of discussion and disagreement of what it all means.
 
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baudib1

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If he just merged this guys range, then he probably has air and never the nuts.

No, merging is really just value betting really wide. I.E. if villain in this hand somehow had AA and he shoves the river hoping to A. fold out some hands that beat AA and B. fake "polarizing" his range to get called by worse.

In other words, if someone's range is polarized to nuts and air and you figure his ratio of nut hand is very small then you can make hero calls with bottom pair or K-high or something.
 
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baudib1

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After this discussion I have read alot about depolarized ranges on 2p2, deucescracked, and some other places. It seems like most places think it's kind of like polarized, but includes some mediocre and value hands, whereas polarized is the nuts or air. I still don't really understand. I feel like I am getting dumber. And then lots of depolarized threads bring up triple range merge, uhhhhhh. My head hurts. There seems to be a lot of discussion and disagreement of what it all means.

What we're saying is that this guy's range has no air, no 0 equity hands and furthermore is totally weighted to the nuts. On this type of board another player very well might be totally polarized but we're not giving a 4 NL player that much credit.


"Triple-range merging" is an inside joke among 2+2 readers.
 
Reptar7

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"Triple-range merging" is an inside joke among 2+2 readers.

O, it's real. They all joke about it, true, but it's real. And yes I know about the AEJones stuff.

Ranges are real. Range Merging is real. Double Range Merging is real. Why would triple range merge not be real. You could never really do it, it would be almost impossible. But think about it. Then try to think of a situation where you could do it. It makes my head hurt.

For me, merging is leveling, but is played out during each hand instead of just in general.

Also, the best explanation of Polarizing was this guy who said: Polarized means very weak and very strong hands. Depolarized means also medium strength hands. Think about the Earth. North Pole on top, South Pole at the bottom. Lets say the North Pole is strong, and the more South you go the weaker it gets, with the South Pole being the weakest. Polarized is only the North and South Pole. Depolarized is also Europe and canada.

It seems like you disagree with a lot of people with what depolarized means. I dont really care though. I dont know why I am even talking about poles, merging, levelling, etc when I am just trying to freeroll my way to a BR, lol. I'm not gonna be doing that type of thinking at the table for awhile.
 
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baudib1

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O, it's real. They all joke about it, true, but it's real. And yes I know about the AEJones stuff.

No, triple-range merging is a total joke other than inside the mind of one guy who was trying to explain why durrrr was losing to isildur1. As of yet no one has come up with an explanation for it that suits anyone, including the OP.

Also, the best explanation of Polarizing was this guy who said: Polarized means very weak and very strong hands. Depolarized means also medium strength hands.

Depolarized means no bluffs, most commonly used in describing live game players who have narrow, depolarized ranges.
 
jbbb

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Triple range merge was explained like -

"You have three ranges - total air, showdown value hands, nut hands.

Some bets (e.g. c/r shoving a turn card on a draw heavy turn) can be either SDV hands, total air bluffs or nut hands and so you have merged all three ranges which makes it difficult for villain to play against you."

As Baudib says, I don't think this really exists, and if it does it only in the highest level of the game such as what you watch on TV. That is my understanding of it anyway. He has been giving you good advice so far, my little bit of advice would be worry less about irrelevant topics at 4NL and just play a strong range in position and value bet hard.
 
bgomez89

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*patiently waiting on someone to yell about how they hate the terms polarization
 
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