$4 NLHE 6-max: Check-raising with sets - is it the most +EV line?

Vini_lepoker

Vini_lepoker

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Got two hands
Is check-raising the best decision? What sizing?

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $5.19 (VPIP: 5.00, PFR: 5.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
Hero (BB): $5.28
UTG: $5.41 (VPIP: 18.50, PFR: 15.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.52, Hands: 258)
CO: $5.22 (VPIP: 93.75, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
BTN: $5.58 (VPIP: 23.08, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='black'>♠</font>

fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.15, fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players) 4<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='red'>♥</font> 5<font color='black'>♠</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.25, Hero ??




PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $5.07 (VPIP: 21.76, PFR: 17.36, 3Bet Preflop: 3.77, Hands: 423)
BTN: $8.92 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 16.77, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 159)
Hero (SB): $6.02
BB: $6.09 (VPIP: 17.22, PFR: 11.72, 3Bet Preflop: 2.97, Hands: 281)
UTG: $8.69 (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 27.37, 3Bet Preflop: 13.64, Hands: 100)

Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 7<font color='black'>♣</font> 7<font color='red'>♦</font>

UTG raises to $0.10, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.08, BB calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.30, 3 players) 4<font color='red'>♦</font> 7<font color='black'>♠</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $0.30, Hero ??


EDIT: Sorry for the 4NL on the title
 
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markrh13

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I would say first hand check-raise is good as you want to charge button to draw, while also perhaps being able to represent playing a draw aggressively yourself.
I think in the second hand just calling is better. It's such a dry board it will make you look incredibly strong and let villain get away from the hand. By just calling, you give villain the opportunity to bet your hand for you again on a later Street.
 
marieemce

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I agree with Mark, the first one need the check-raise, flop came wet, I would do something like $0,75
But the second one just a call can be a large pot for you to win.
 
Aces2w1n

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JJ: 3bet pre, we have a very strong hand here and OOP we need to take control of the hand. And own this.

Now we flopped a set this is awesome... and well whats great is we can now bet and get called on this dryboard. Often we have missed this board and we should get 1 or 2 streets quite easy depending on opponents hand.

Often we will get stacks in by 3betting pre and hitting a set. Esp if villain has a strong hand. Just hopefully we catch this guy offguard, earlier investing against this guy is best... and give him better prices towards the end to get those crying calls.




77: why raise UTG off his hand??? Though is pot size means he is ready to pay us... I'd wait til turn though... if it was a K not Q i'd raise now.
Villain doesn't appear the greatest, so he should pay us on later streets, so lets give some rope first.
 
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braveslice

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I too like calling 77, large pot potential is there, UTG migh go for 3 barrel even with AK. AQ and KQ are in BB range.

JJ I have no idea what is correct, but given carefull player opens from button flop should hardly ever hit him, so I would just call.
 
Omahahahaha

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I'm making a pot sized raise in both situations.
 
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MikeMike109

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I agree with Mark I would the same
 
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ninoverm

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I agree on most of the previous comments that the second one should be a call. His range looks a lot like AQ, KK and AA after betting full pot OTF and he'll probably put in more money when you keep letting him be aggressive.

First one: 3-bet pre. Way ahead of BTN opening range, time to get value, especially OOP. As played, the flop decision is a lot closer than the second one. I think it really depends on the way you play (or the way your opponent perceives you) and the way your opponent plays. If he's a maniac that will punt off his stack, you can slowplay. If he's a calling station that will chase draws way too much, raise. If you've been calling a lot with marginal bluff catchers, call. If you've been really aggressive and check-raised a lot with draws, raise. So many factors to take into consideration. Really could go either way in that spot, both calling and raising are fine imo.

Oh, and another tip: keep flopping sets! Seems like a winning play from my experience.
 
John A

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In both cases no, CR would be -EV. First hand w/ open button, his range is too wide and will miss this flop too often, and second hand it's too dry.

But like all things, it depends on other things. I think when you get into games where your opponents are thinking more then CR the second hand is a great spot for someone to 3-bet the flop and make a big mistake. It's all about where your opponent is thinking and then being one step ahead right?
 
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ninoverm

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In both cases no, CR would be -EV. First hand w/ open button, his range is too wide and will miss this flop too often, and second hand it's too dry.

But like all things, it depends on other things. I think when you get into games where your opponents are thinking more then CR the second hand is a great spot for someone to 3-bet the flop and make a big mistake. It's all about where your opponent is thinking and then being one step ahead right?



lol @ -EV. Good luck finding a -EV play in these particular spots. Wait, no, don't say fold, that's exactly +0 EV. I guess you mean x/r is -EV relative to x/r. :)

Agree on the rest, although I think the first hand is a better hand to c/r than the second, considering board texture and villain's action.
 
Aces2w1n

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Never heard of the term -ev relative
 
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braveslice

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=) definetely we need that term, saves up many words
 
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braveslice

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ninoverm

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Hmm, EVR, -EVR and +EVR I like these, good creativity @ninoverm

Googling gives this, it's a bit differently used: http://www.internettexasholdem.com/poker-forum/general-board/math-relative-expected-value-65114.html

Too bad it seems that calculating EVR is almost impossible on the flop without full hand decision tree =D Well, just realized that the same applies to EV too, so no harm.

Yeah, I think +REV and -REV makes more sense language wise. 'Calling here is +REV vs raising'.
 
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braveslice

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Yeah I had it that way first too, REV is more logical, but given the core meaning of expected value EV, it’s clearer to start it with EV letters. This gives the reader right away the correct vocabulary to start wondering what it means.

EVX is right away something ev related, when again XEV can be many things.
 
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