$4 NLHE 6-max: $4 NLHE : 88 utg VS min raise from the button on flop

JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

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No reads on villain like 9 hands or so.But on the flop he snap min raised.Is this call then revaluate on the turn?Or is this a fold?
Merge, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

CO: $4 (100 bb)
BTN: $2.82 (70.5 bb)
SB: $2.50 (62.5 bb)
BB: $2.07 (51.7 bb)
Hero (MP): $4.33 (108.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8
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8
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Hero raises to $0.12, CO folds, BTN calls $0.12, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.30) 5
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K
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K
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(2 players)
Hero bets $0.16,BTN raises to $0.32?
 
micromachine

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It is hard to interpret what his min raise means. I have seen people do this for several reasons:
-real strength - he has a King or a pair higher than yours
-to try to finish the hand, winning the pot with a weakish hand (he has a A5 or something)
-as a complete bluff
I normally call and see what happens in these situations but whether that is the right play I don't know.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Why cbet? If called you are behind. If raised you have to fold.


Why not c/c? and then re-evaluate?
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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Cbet to pick up dead money possibly get some value from 66-77 and other air that like to peel paired boards?
 
ChuckTs

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Flop cbet is fine. It's for relatively thin value, to buy our equity share, and pick up dead money. A 4nl 70bb stacker will call with a ton worse. It also allows us to take control of the hand.

What if we c/c flop? Turn is a Tr and villain bets again. Now we feel retarded.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Smaller than half pot really?

why not?

If the reason to cbet is to collect dead money then the bet size is almost irrelevant.

So 1/3 pot

1/4 pot

Dead money is something that exists more against passive players than aggressive players. If the villians agro enough to raise with air on paired boards then there isnt any dead money in the pot.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Flop cbet is fine. It's for relatively thin value, to buy our equity share, and pick up dead money. A 4nl 70bb stacker will call with a ton worse. It also allows us to take control of the hand.

What if we c/c flop? Turn is a Tr and villain bets again. Now we feel retarded.

Villian isnt calling with 9To to fold if he makes a pair is he?

So the real question is, is this player likey to bluff the turn after we call his flop bluff.
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

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Villians a unkown though i don't know if he is argo enough to raise with air or not.Less than half pot just screams weakness to me if he has half a brain could pick up on it right?
 
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baudib1

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Probably b/f flop, b/f turn, c/f river

I'd fold here given stakes and little info given. We're probably ahead often enough but the rest of the hand will be annoying to play OOP.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Villians a unkown though i don't know if he is argo enough to raise with air or not.Less than half pot just screams weakness to me if he has half a brain could pick up on it right?

Without reads its difficult.

So the simple question is this :

at 4NL, if you lined up 100 unknown players would you say that more than 50 were agro or passive?
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

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Without reads its difficult.

So the simple question is this :

at 4NL, if you lined up 100 unknown players would you say that more than 50 were agro or passive?
Well yeah 4nl is way more passive and many more calling station is that not a reason to bethalfpot\ pot to get called from AX or so for value rather than smaller though.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Well yeah 4nl is way more passive and many more calling station is that not a reason to bethalfpot\ pot to get called from AX or so for value rather than smaller though.

Yes

If you think the call a flop bet with AT, AJ, JQ, 22 33 etc then you are value betting so then you bet bigger, but bigger is bigger than 1/2 pot!

If you are betting to collect dead money then you bet smaller because if the money is dead then your bet size is irrelevant.

If you think your opponent is aggressive and will pounce on weakness then you check/call because your 88 is way ahead of his entire range.
 
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baudib1

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Stu I don't understand what you're saying about collecting dead money. First off, we shouldn't telegraph our intentions when betting.

Whether I have AK, 55, 88 or JTo I would probably bet 1/2 pot on this board. Secondly if we just want overcards to fold betting smaller probably doesn't work for us because it's a pretty easy float for AQ facing a 10-cent bet here IMO.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Stu I don't understand what you're saying about collecting dead money. First off, we shouldn't telegraph our intentions when betting.

Whether I have AK, 55, 88 or JTo I would probably bet 1/2 pot on this board. Secondly if we just want overcards to fold betting smaller probably doesn't work for us because it's a pretty easy float for AQ facing a 10-cent bet here IMO.


you dont need to conceal infomation in your bet sizes at these stakes.

If a guy folds a ton then he folds regardless of your betsize so you can collect dead money very cheaply.

If a guy calls a lot he calls almost regardless of your betsize so you can value bet weaker and weaker hands. Your betsize has nothing to do with value. Value is simply a function of combinetrics. If more hands call that you beat than beat you its a value bet and therefore there is no need to reduce the betsize.

If a guy likes to bluff then give him chance to bluff, checking is the best way to ensure that he bluffs (and you hold a bluff catcher).
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

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5KK board i was def not seeing 88 as a bluff catcher.Maybe i need to think about this more.BTW insa folding to the min raise isn't bad right?
 
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I understand what you're saying about the stakes but in marginal situations (you seem to agree this is a marginal situation) I'd rather play balanced.

I disagree that his range is inelastic; I think if we bet pot we'll mostly only get called by better hands.
 
Stu_Ungar

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5KK board i was def not seeing 88 as a bluff catcher.Maybe i need to think about this more.BTW insa folding to the min raise isn't bad right?

I def wouldnt be trying to build a pot here so yes id fold.

But I think you need to think why it is you are betting and then pick a betsize thats appropriate.

Basically look at it like this, the micros are the only place you can generally make face up exploitable betsizes and get away with it so its something you should be doing.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I understand what you're saying about the stakes but in marginal situations (you seem to agree this is a marginal situation) I'd rather play balanced.

I disagree that his range is inelastic; I think if we bet pot we'll mostly only get called by better hands.

bet 3/4 pot then.

Value is value
 
Stu_Ungar

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I understand what you're saying about the stakes but in marginal situations (you seem to agree this is a marginal situation) I'd rather play balanced.


Being balanced is kind of stupid TBH.

Balanced is neutral ev.

The reason to become more and more balanced is to conceal information yet you are against players who simply dont know how to interperate information.

At any time in any hand there is only 1 correct decision. Now against a good opponent you have to become more balanced to prevent him from exploiting you. So you are giving up something is mathmatical ev to prevent him exploiting your tendencies.

In order to be exploited your opponent has to consciously exploit you. If he isnt doing that then balance serves only to reduce your own ev.

If, at any point in any hand you have 2 choices.

1. to be balanced
2. to be unbalanced but exploit a tendency of your opponent

then exploiting is always more +ev

Your opponent has to be actively balancing his defensive strategy or actively exploiting your strategy before you need to shift away from pure exploitation and this simply dosent happen at 4NL.
 
bgomez89

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bet 3/4 pot then.

Value is value

Like chuck said we're betting to collect money and for thin value. I was taught to make my bet smaller the thinner the vbet is
 
Stu_Ungar

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Like chuck said we're betting to collect money and for thin value. I was taught to make my bet smaller the thinner the vbet is

Value is value.

In order to value bet, you must be right more than 50%.. bet size is irrelevent

Thin value is really something that only exists against good players on the river, its basically betting things like bottom pair or underpairs to be called by ace high in spots where your opponent can hand read and feels that against your entire range you are repping nothing. The main reason to bet "thin value" is to balance your betting range. You bet knowing that when called you loose a lot, but you do so to make him less willing to bluff catch.

Thin value does not exist against bad players and does not exist on the flop.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I was taught to make my bet smaller the thinner the vbet is

BTW that is 100% wrong.

If you are value betting its because more worse hands call than better hands.

So why would you want to bet small in that situation? There is no logical reason to bet smaller when you are ahead, nor is there any reason to bet FOR VALUE on the flop or turn when you think you are behind.
 
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baudib1

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So why would you want to bet small in that situation?

To widen their calling range. Stu, you act as if you have never heard of elastic calling ranges and you're obviously smarter than that.

Also, cue AeJones: two-way bets exist.
 
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