$4 NLHE 6-max: 2 Pair vs ATC Villain

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 69/8/53

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
Hero (BTN): $4.04
SB: $2.90
BB: $3.90
UTG: $7.98
CO: $4.12
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04
Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has 9♠ 8♠
fold, fold, Hero calls $0.04, SB calls $0.02, BB checks
Flop: ($0.12, 3 players) 9♥ 8♥ 4♣
SB bets $0.04, fold, Hero raises to $0.17, SB calls $0.13
Turn: ($0.46, 2 players) 7♥
SB checks, Hero bets $0.34, SB calls $0.34
River: ($1.14, 2 players) T♠
SB checks, Hero checks

Don't limp pre. I bet turn more and the rest I think is fine

ehhh
I'm all for stealing pre,and given position but vs a 70\8 i might limp the BTN as well.(but prob raise given i can't help my self)
As played i raise to .20 on flop then bet .50 on turn,check behind on river i'm cool with

duhh, of course he has ATC when you LIMP ON THE BUTTON.

I swear that should actually be a crime.

stop doing that.

I raise the flop for way more, 4nl people are stations and there's a million cards that we hate so.. make him pay to outdraw you.

Campbell92 said:

duhh, of course he has ATC when you LIMP ON THE BUTTON.He's going to have ATC when you raise the button also,and you have 9 high in a bigger pot vs a calling station.

I swear that should actually be a crime.

stop doing that.

I raise the flop for way more, 4nl people are stations and there's a million cards that we hate so.. make him pay to outdraw you.

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By raising here there is a chance to take it down pre(slim i would say).It gives you the initiative in the hand while IP.

i puked in my mouth when i saw the limp pre

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5,835,532,032 games 0.000 secs 1,167,106,406,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.123% 43.43% 01.69% 2534577284 98597188.00 { 98s }
Hand 1: 54.877% 53.19% 01.69% 3103760372 98597188.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 93s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, A2o+, K2o+, Q3o+, J5o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o }


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And if he hits anything he is not folding, not sure if the limp vs the station is all that bad TBH

really, now I have to argue against limping on the BUTTON now?

come on, seriously.

stealing on the BTN with ATC vs a station is a leak!!
I'm not saying i wouldn't raise 89s here.
Just saying i don't think in this spot it's has bad as it would other wise seem.

why not raise, if he calls and folds a lot then c bet a lot.

if he's a life station then tighten up and value bet till he's got no money left.

limping 98s OTB isnt the way to adjust to this.

A 70\8 is not folding to a lot of cbets

Raise pre.

*98s is a better than average hand
*He will fold sometimes
*We have position
*We get to play a bigger pot and hence win more money vs a fish

Postflop seems fine. The turn card is horrific but there is still defo value to be had. The river things have got way too ugly to value bet even this guy.

Deco said:

Raise pre.

*98s is a better than average hand we have 45 eq vs his range
*He will fold sometimes"sometimes" very rarley though
*We have positionthis
*We get to play a bigger pot and hence win more money vs a fishyou can control pot size in a limped pot vs a calling station ,by slightly over betting pot on all streets if you hit the flop\turn hard.

Postflop seems fine. The turn card is horrific but there is still defo value to be had. The river things have got way too ugly to value bet even this guy.

Click to expand...

see bolded

JOEBOB69 said:

see bolded

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You can't judge a hands overall value based on it's preflop equity.
Would you play KQs vs someone who's range is {A2-AJ, 22-JJ}? Our hand is way stronger than their range yet we hold 45% equity.

Preflop equity is generally only useful when we are getting it all in pre. Otherwise A2o would be a stronger hand than KQs, 22 would be stronger than AK, 72o would be stronger than 45s.

Even if we did use your flawed equity logic and also assumed we have no edge on villain postflop (via position or skill).
Getting villain to fold 30% of the time (I use this as you used a 70% range vs 89s) and having 45% equity when he doesn't is a very EV+ proposition even when we factor in the other blind. (Our equity is likely better as he may 3bet QQ+/AK)

I understand what you're trying to say,but.Why burn money pre with 9 high when you still can take 1/2-all villains stack by not risking the extra bb's?

Let me try to justify my logic.It's sort of like set mining a massive nit 7\6.But here it's not that villain always has a over pair,it's that if villain hits any draw\pair on the board he will call almost any bet with out the cost of 3x or 4x the bb pre.

We're not burning money. I explained how it's +EV even if position meant nothing, we couldn't outplay a 69vpip fish postflop, AK/QQ+ are in his flatting range and that preflop equity decided the strength of a hand (all of which are terrible notions).

Let's say we raise 12c one of two things will happen (assuming as AK/QQ+ are in his flatting range he never 3bets :s).

We win 6c 30% of the time = 6c profit
We get called and have 45% equity in a 28c pot (worth 12.6c) = 0.6c profit!

Burning Money [ ]

First off with out knowing i'm almost certain this villain prob defends his bb more than 70% of the time.
We 3x villain calls
Board comes Kh10h 3d
villain checks,Hero?

JOEBOB69 said:

when you still can take 1/2-all villains stack by not risking the extra bb's?

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We'll win smaller pots on average. Having villain call 3 pot bets/overbets is much harder than having villain call 3 normal sized bets or 2 potbets/overbets.

JOEBOB69 said:

First off with out knowing i'm almost certain this villain prob defends his bb more than 70% of the time.

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I believe villain will call more than 70% of the time. It's you who used a 70% range to get 45% equity. Against a 100% range we're favourites, remove QQ+/AK and we are even more so.

Not sure why we're still discussing this you ignored my original post debunking the preflop equity = hand strength belief.

Is A2o a better hand than KQs?
Is 22 a better hand than AK?
Is 92o a better hand than 45s?

JOEBOB69 said:

We 3x villain calls
Board comes Kh10h 3d
villain checks,Hero?

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We check. Is your new point that we may miss the flop. I guess we shouldn't raise AK here in case the flop comes 98J.
lol I'm being a dick now apologies

Deco said:

I believe villain will call more than 70% of the time. It's you who used a 70% range to get 45% equity. Against a 100% range we're favourites, remove QQ+/AK and we are even more so.

Not sure why we're still discussing this you ignored my original post debunking the preflop equity = hand strength belief.It's just that vs this villain the eq does go more along the lines of all in preflop eq given he rarely folds,so the chances increases that you will see all the board run out(if that makes any sense)

lol I'm being a dick now apologies

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na i don't see ya being a dick at all

That's the thing we get to play him postflop and use the fact he doesn't fold against him. We can value town the shit out of him when we hit and make lots of money. When we miss we fold and lose our initial 12c or seeing as he's passive checkdown and possibly catch up. Equity means nothing to us as we intend to play postflop and kick his arse.

Playing fish with a solid hand like 89s with position is a very EV+ proposition, I want to be playing for a 28c pot on the flop rather than a 12c pot because playing fish is how we make money, we do not need to restrict ourselves to raising Ax hands with good preflop equity because it's irrevelant postflop as we're going to print money either way.

If we we're going to call every street regardless of only holding 9high when we miss or checkdown regardless that we hit an amazing hand using equity would be accurate.

4 things:
-stopped reading when you limped pre.

-no mr. Joebob! That's a bad mr. Joebob. Y u advocate open limping on the button vs fish?!

JOEBOB69 said:

A 70\8 is not folding to a lot of cbets

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Oh and you know this how? I made a lot of money on fish with those stats who call anything pre then fold a ton to cbets.

Fold or raise pre ainec

Already said i prob raise but i think it's much closer than yall are makeing it to seem.