4-Bet Here???????

SeaRun

SeaRun

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Normally I would, but one thing about this player's stats worried me. Fairly solid player, don't see him lose often.

18/10 / up ~ 200 bbs for 270 hands and only 3-bet pre-flop twice (2 for 70). That would make me think his 3-bet range is pretty tight, maybe only As and Ks. If that thought is right, only chance I have of winning the pot is if he has Ks and an A comes on the flop.

Flop is dry so I could donk-bet trying to rep a set of Js.

Thoughts?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG+1 ($3.85)
MP1 ($6.25)
MP2 ($6.97)
MP3 ($3.79)
Hero (CO) ($6.60)
Button ($5.69)
SB ($5.02)
BB ($7.71)
UTG ($1.59)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K
diamond.gif
, A
diamond.gif

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.17, Button raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.97) 8
club.gif
, 3
diamond.gif
, J
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.65, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.97 | Rake: $0.04
 
Speedexas

Speedexas

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Flop is dry so I could donk-bet trying to rep a set of Js.

Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG+1 ($3.85)
MP1 ($6.25)
MP2 ($6.97)
MP3 ($3.79)
Hero (CO) ($6.60)
Button ($5.69)
SB ($5.02)
BB ($7.71)
UTG ($1.59)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K
diamond.gif
, A
diamond.gif

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.17, Button raises to $0.45, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.97) 8
club.gif
, 3
diamond.gif
, J
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.65, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.97 | Rake: $0.04

Since when youre repping J J J on that flop. As you said hes a solid player , so he would understand that you dont have a set here as only fish or very bad regs would do that with Jacks.I would put you on QQ KK , maybe A J if youre 3bet call is lower than 60. If you donk here you probably will make him to fold AK but thats about it. You played it fine IMO.
 
AtiFCOD

AtiFCOD

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It's ok.
You had two options on flop: raise/fold or check/fold.
Since you are out of position, the second one seems to be better choice. You did that, so ok. :)
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

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Since when youre repping J J J on that flop. As you said hes a solid player , so he would understand that you dont have a set here as only fish or very bad regs would do that with Jacks.I would put you on QQ KK , maybe A J if youre 3bet call is lower than 60. If you donk here you probably will make him to fold AK but thats about it. You played it fine IMO.

OK, first, I consider myself still a beginner at the game when compared to many on this board, so I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to understand better.

I don't think he has AK (but it's possible obviously), so to try to bluff him off that is a non-issue. But if I had JJ, I would have raised the same pre-, 3-1/2 bbs. Given the raise he made, I wouldn't have 4-bet with Js, but rightly wrongly I probably would have called.

So, given your comment above, calling with JJ would be the wrong play??
 
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CANDYMAN1414

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Definitely not .. player is solid and you can pick a better spot to be in.
 
Speedexas

Speedexas

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OK, first, I consider myself still a beginner at the game when compared to many on this board, so I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to understand better.

I don't think he has AK (but it's possible obviously), so to try to bluff him off that is a non-issue. But if I had JJ, I would have raised the same pre-, 3-1/2 bbs. Given the raise he made, I wouldn't have 4-bet with Js, but rightly wrongly I probably would have called.

So, given your comment above, calling with JJ would be the wrong play??

I wrote donking would be a bad play.
Calling would be the best play IMO. His 3bet is low so basically he has just AA KK here. If you call he will definitely bet the turn with those hands. And if there's no A or K on the river you can check raise or just bet like 80% of the pot yourself. And IMO OTR you cant go ALL-IN as if hes solid he may find fold button to that bet. And you want to get paid. But you didnt had JJ so...
 
SeaRun

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OK, misread it I guess, thanks!!!!
 
P

Pavelito51

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1st - 4bet your AK coz you're OOP
2nd - 2 3bet on 70 hands is not enough to establish his 3bet range
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

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1st - 4bet your AK coz you're OOP
2nd - 2 3bet on 70 hands is not enough to establish his 3bet range

Well, if that's all we have to go on, what do we do? I know it's a miniature sample size, but as noted, it's all we have.
 
akaRobbo

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Wouldn't be 4 betting AKs against him pre...

x/f is fine...

Don't go trying to make plays or bluff solid players, as you've described him. There's just no need for it at 5NL.
 
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T

thatgreekdude

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you could try and rep a set of jacks but even if he buys it and puts you on jacks, if he's got aces or kings he's never going to fold at 5NL anyway so. 4betting AK pre- against a solid player isn't an option OOP.
 
Speedexas

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you could try and rep a set of jacks but even if he buys it and puts you on jacks, if he's got aces or kings he's never going to fold at 5NL anyway so. 4betting AK pre- against a solid player isn't an option OOP.

Thats why you dont wanna try to represent JJ with AK at NL5.
 
IPlay

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If you think AA or KK is his 3 bet range here than calling is a mistake because you only have 23% equity against that range and you had to put .27 into a .69 pot which is about 2.3:1 which means you need around 25%+ equity to make this a +EV call.

4Bet or fold pre, probably fold.
 
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swingro

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If you think AA or KK is his 3 bet range here than calling is a mistake because you only have 23% equity against that range and you had to put .27 into a .69 pot which is about 2.3:1 which means you need around 25%+ equity to make this a +EV call.

4Bet or fold pre, probably fold.
Most likely a fold. He has enough hands on the villan so 2% 3-bet is accurate. I do not think that involving in a 3-bet pot OOP is +EV against this villain.
 
SeaRun

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If you think AA or KK is his 3 bet range here than calling is a mistake because you only have 23% equity against that range and you had to put .27 into a .69 pot which is about 2.3:1 which means you need around 25%+ equity to make this a +EV call.

4Bet or fold pre, probably fold.

Thanks IPlay. I guess part of my question wasn't clear, and that should have been is my read on him right? Does anyone agree or disagree that he was on AA or KK only, which is part of the reason I called instead of the other 2 options, I wasn't sure.
 
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thatgreekdude

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your read could well be right, but considering that he is facing a late position raise and he's in position i think he could 3bet wider than AA KK, i'd maybe include AK QQ and occasionally JJ to his range.
 
suby_rafael

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There are lots of ways to play this hand. Since you mentioned the stats about the villain and how he is a fairly tight proposition when it comes to 3 betting so i would not have four bet here. I would have flat called just as you did and made a fold on the flop. I also think against such a player it is not a good idea to bluff or play aggressive. So i think you played the hand well irrespective of what the outcome might have been.
 
duggs

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its played fine, donking would be horrible, with ANY hand
 
IPlay

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Thanks IPlay. I guess part of my question wasn't clear, and that should have been is my read on him right? Does anyone agree or disagree that he was on AA or KK only, which is part of the reason I called instead of the other 2 options, I wasn't sure.

Your read is fine and I agree. Better to have a 0 EV hand than a -EV. If you think that his range is KK+ and flop comes K high you are crushed with your TPTK and if flop comes A high you may have the better hand but if he has KK he is not putting much money in and if he has AA you are probably getting stacked. So calling with this hand is just looking for straights or flushes and that is not happening too often. I think 98s may have more equity in this spot.
 
IPlay

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I checked, I was wrong. AKs has about 1.1% more equity than 98s in this spot haha.
 
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swingro

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Your read is fine and I agree. Better to have a 0 EV hand than a -EV. If you think that his range is KK+ and flop comes K high you are crushed with your TPTK and if flop comes A high you may have the better hand but if he has KK he is not putting much money in and if he has AA you are probably getting stacked. So calling with this hand is just looking for straights or flushes and that is not happening too often. I think 98s may have more equity in this spot.
It doesn't but it plays better IMO even though i think it is a mistake to call with any hand OOP against such a villain. Folding saves getting into a bad situation. We know what he might have and we hope we hit the board hard to get his stack.
And this is 5NL. I think we can get a lot of other good situation to make money from, other than fighting regs OOP.
 
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You can do it against As or Ks. Make sure you can endure the swings if you can hit set from your hidden pairs! Beside that, prepare to have hugh amount to call by turn and river if chasing!
 
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