$3000 NLHE Full Ring: Donk shoving in the river

Cash games in casino.

8 players table. Blinds of 10/20. (All values ​​are approximate, table commissions, final deductions, and special casino rules for certain game moments are not included.)

This is a table with all the attention paid to the BTN position player, who is the villain I face.

The BTN is a new player at the table, we do not know his style but a teammate told me in other rounds later, that he is a person who has an aggressive style of play. So in this particular hand, I had no specific readings about the BTN.

sequence:

I am in HJ with a stack of $ 3000. I receive As-Qs.
Open MP at $ 44. MP + 1 fold. From HJ I make 3-bet at $ 139. CO fold. The BTN (which has a stack very similar to mine) calls. SB and BB folds.


$ 350 jackpot (2 players)
Flop:
Js-5h-Jh

$ 122 hero cbet. With this bet of 1/3 of boat I am looking for calls of protection, of low hands like 7-7; 9-9; T-T In general, these combos have a low strength of 3-bet, because they are blocking some lines like A-7; A-9; A-T; K-T; Q-T So if the villain makes 3-bet, he will be facing a range of values ​​higher than his own, or flush draw combos, which may be partially blocked. But I suppose this would not be good in this texture, since we can now continue call / 3bet with Jacks trips, which were waiting for a value induction.
The villain calls, so I think his range is formed with combos of middle couples + backdoor flush combos with blocker + flush draw combos.


Boat of approximately $ 594
Turn:
Js-5h-Jh 8s

The 8s is a good street for Hero, because now it increases the range of V bluffs, since BNT has 7-9 available; 9-T and to a lesser extent Q-9 and Q-T.
I decide to make a bet of $ 370 (about 60% of the pot), which represents a flush block, because now I found it more likely, that all middle couples fold and stay with their full polarized range, which I thought contained many more bluffs what values
BTN makes 3-bet 1.2k and at this point, I thought that according to the range assigned to V, there was a possibility that BTN uses its bluffs and semi bluffs, to represent a value bet. It was also possible, that villain hid a high value, in his range of call / 3bet-preflop. (HJ VS BTN). Of course it didn't include a J in its range.
In addition, I opened a flush line on the board, so I decided to call and went to the river.


Approximately 3k boat
River:
Js-5h-Jh-8s 5s

I managed to form the flush of swords with the best nut. But this was a line, within a stronger one. However, in this case I saw the opportunity to make a non-standard movement.
The 5s is a street that enhances my rank, because now it is less likely to consider that value in the V range. At that time, I thought that the induction of calls was more important than before. Because when the board is paired twice, there are many values ​​in the range of the villain that could now function as bluffs catchers. They could also exist in the V range, flush draws combos completed on a smaller scale, which they could also call. I thought that if I let continue betting on BTN, I could not do 3-bet, because they would only call me better hands that defeat my rank. So I decided to make a donk bet for the rest of my chips (1.66k). The boat is now 4.66k (approximately). Villano thinks like 5 minutes, a little restless and in the end he makes the call.

I would like to know your opinion about the hand. At the end of the publication, after a few days and after receiving opinions, I will publish the final result that occurred in this hand. Until then and thank you very much.

Greetings.

I like your style.

Pre flop was standard.
Flop c-bet was too small to really accomplish anything at the levels I play. But the bet was mandatory. I agree with your assessment of range except I never rule out nutty hands when they continue.
Turn bet I agree with your bet and sizing. I think alot of 2p and anything with a jack or lower back door draw continues, so your likely not drawing dead yet.
River is interesting. You have a good made hand but there are now several ways for villan to have a full house. Any non Pairing card is a clear shove, but here the bet blurs the line between bluff and value. I'm not sure if anything that comes this far folds, so your getting value from all the 2 pairs and loosing to the boats. Ev seems fairly close to even, but Checking seems way worse at this point. If you're gonna call a bet, your better off shoving. If your gonna fold you are giving away all your equity. If villain checks back you are likely ahead, and loosing value. .. reluctantly agree with the shove.

Disclosure: this hand is played at higher levels than I play.

I hope you're over rolled for this game.

Every street is a mess. Pre-flop your sizing isn't good for your flop SPR. You should have your 3-bet more in the range of 110.

Flop, on a paired board IP you should be checking at least half the time with strong back door nut outs. Betting is fine, but it should really be closer to 1/4 pot ideally in a 3-bet pot. I think solvers will go as high as 1/3rd here, so maybe it's borderline ok.

Turn, you need to be checking almost always. No idea why you bet. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense and your call is really bad.

River, sigh... you rightly assign that most of your opponents range is going to be bluff on the turn, and then you decide to shove the river. Ummm... ok.

I don't need to see the results. I assume you won the hand as your opponent felt pot committed with his KK/AA, but it was a disaster of a hand if I'm being honest.

I don’t like it. If you had described V as tight then I may think that this line could be good because V wouldn’t be cold calling 3 bets with too much Jx with the PFR left behind him who can 4 bet. A tight player should be folding AJs here unless he thinks we are 3 betting light. But even if we give him AJs that’s 2 combos plus JJ. If we can narrow his range to AJs, JJ, 55, 88, QQ+ that slow played pre and some bluff combos then we are doing well enough on the river to extract value from overpairs which will out number his value hands combo wise. 9 combos vs 5 value (7 if we add the 2 AJs). But since you’re saying V has all of these flush draws in his range on the flop and turn then I am assuming he’s loose to cold call a 3 bet with those. And if he’s loose enough to have those draws then he can have A5s, and any broadway Jx (15 combos). Lastly, our bet doesn’t have much gold equity so there’s zero chance we get better to fold. I can’t figure out why you’re so confident that you have the best hand here. I don’t think it’s bad for it to go check, check here and we win. Given pot odds I could get behind a check / call as well but again, it’s heavily dependent on ranges. I can’t imagine any boat would tank for 5 mins so congrats on the win!

After a few days, and receiving some more opinions, I will finish explaining the hand. As was the villain's thought, and the entire development of the river. Until then and thank you all for your analysis. Every thing they write serves to help. Everything is welcome in this forum. It is really very important, the exchange of opinions. I respect all the positions and thank you for your kindness. See you in a few days. Greetings.

gustav197poker said:

The villain calls, so I think his range is formed with combos of middle couples + backdoor flush combos with blocker + flush draw combos.

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Their range should be way wider than that.
Surely they can have a lot of flush draws and some backdoor flush draws.
But they can also have AJo,JTs,JQs,KJs.
You can't be certain that they aren't slowplaying Jx unless you have played a lot with them and they never slowplay hands.

gustav197poker said:

Turn:
Js-5h-Jh 8s
I decide to make a bet of $ 370 (about 60% of the pot), which represents a flush block, because now I found it more likely, that all middle couples fold and stay with their full polarized range, which I thought contained many more bluffs what values
BTN makes 3-bet 1.2k and at this point, I thought that according to the range assigned to V, there was a possibility that BTN uses its bluffs and semi bluffs, to represent a value bet. It was also possible, that villain hid a high value, in his range of call / 3bet-preflop. (HJ VS BTN). Of course it didn't include a J in its range.

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Semi-bluffing is a good play when we have a lot of fold equity but the 8 is a better card for villains range rather than ours, they now pick up gutshots alongside their flush draws and will rarely fold to our bet.
The bet is on the higher side and when villain raises we are faced with a tough decision.
You have the nut flush draw, but the board is paired and most of their draws should call instead of raising turn, because if you 3bet shove they have to fold and lose all of their equity.
They can be raising with the medium pairs 99-QQ which we are drawing poorly against, but if they also have semibluffs in their range we have to call.
You excluded Jx from their range although I believe you shouldn't, since all of their Jx are raising turn for protection.

gustav197poker said:

The 5s is a street that enhances my rank, because now it is less likely to consider that value in the V range. At that time, I thought that the induction of calls was more important than before. Because when the board is paired twice, there are many values ​​in the range of the villain that could now function as bluffs catchers. They could also exist in the V range, flush draws combos completed on a smaller scale, which they could also call. I thought that if I let continue betting on BTN, I could not do 3-bet, because they would only call me better hands that defeat my rank. So I decided to make a donk bet for the rest of my chips (1.66k).

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You decide to take an unorthodox line and shove river instead of checking with the intention of calling a bluff bet of their missed flush/straight draws, which you are now making them to fold.
You consider their range to be a lot of bluffcatchers although what can they really have that is a bluffcatcher, A8s, medium pairs, or maybe Ahxh that decided to hero call with A high?
I can't see a call with those hands unless there is some crazy aggression history with villain.
Their hands that we can extract value are smaller flushes.
If Villain has a smaller flush if you check, they should be betting for value, since your only holdings that beat them are AKss, AQss, AJs and JJ, but when you are donk shoving you are giving them a chance to hero fold smaller flushes.
Yes they could be confused with they way you played your hand and call river with medium pairs and small flushes but unfortunately you are also value owning yourself by donking river.

Overall I like the flop bet, but I would check turn and check/call river to keep their bluffs in their range.

Hi there,

My main concern in this hand is your turn call on his reraise.
Paid a big price there to chase the draw, unless you were thinking that you might be ahead which is very unlikely because of the line till there. He called a 3bet, flop and now raises big on your big bet on turn on a wet board. Looks pretty much like protection and value
.
I guess your shove on the river is fair and can be justified since you hit what you were hoping for (although no the best of the spades) and you are already both committed to a big pot and it will be very hard for him to fold the main suspects (AA/KK) or something like 1010.

Of course his range includes Jacks too and 88 lol (sometimes those crazy turn bets turn out to be exactly that and they are very well hidden and hard to think of). But since you say that he was thinking for 5 mins then I suppose he didn't have that 88.

c0rnBr34d said:

I don’t like it. If you had described V as tight then I may think that this line could be good because V wouldn’t be cold calling 3 bets with too much Jx with the PFR left behind him who can 4 bet. A tight player should be folding AJs here unless he thinks we are 3 betting light. But even if we give him AJs that’s 2 combos plus JJ. If we can narrow his range to AJs, JJ, 55, 88, QQ+ that slow played pre and some bluff combos then we are doing well enough on the river to extract value from overpairs which will out number his value hands combo wise. 9 combos vs 5 value (7 if we add the 2 AJs). But since you’re saying V has all of these flush draws in his range on the flop and turn then I am assuming he’s loose to cold call a 3 bet with those. And if he’s loose enough to have those draws then he can have A5s, and any broadway Jx (15 combos). Lastly, our bet doesn’t have much gold equity so there’s zero chance we get better to fold. I can’t figure out why you’re so confident that you have the best hand here. I don’t think it’s bad for it to go check, check here and we win. Given pot odds I could get behind a check / call as well but again, it’s heavily dependent on ranges. I can’t imagine any boat would tank for 5 mins so congrats on the win!

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That was actually exceeded by my anxiety. He had to tank for approximately 2 minutes.

I won the hand but I will tell how it happened.
The bet I made on the turn, seeks to block the villain's hand, because the flush line of hearts was not completed. This movement, I can do with a J in my range. Therefore if I consider this, the amount of J in the range of the villain decreases. The btn can now only have a J combo in its range.
In turn, when villain makes 3-bet, he has a range of values ​​that he could now protect: A-A (3 combos); K-K (6 combos); Q-Q (3 combos) and finally its combo of J = 13 c. These combos have 3-bet strength, but in the river they were transformed into combos of bluffs catchers. (except the J combo).
On top of that, the villain's rank is formed by bluff combos . Specifically, I considered the bluff range of btn: 9-T (4 combos suits); 7-9 (4 combos suits) + a minimum of 3 combos flush draws = 11c.
So I thought the V range was balanced, between combos of value and combos of bluff. Therefore the V, could make 3-bet on the turn, both with combos of value, as with combos of bluff. At that time, I thought I was in a 50/50 situation. Probably if villain used these combos of semi-bluffs, he thought of a high fold equity on my part, because surely he also considered few Js in my range.
On the river, when I made the advance bet, the villain got confused and maybe he thought that I wanted to cheat him with combos of failed draws. He didn't believe that I had completed my flush line and he probably thought that I didn't block his range of bluff catchers.
What I never imagined was that the BTN had Ad-Kd in its range of bluff catchers, which was the hand that the villain finally showed.
We were all amazed. I expected like range of bluffs catchers to A-A or K-K, or maybe much farther to Q-Q. But never Ad-Kd. I can't hide keep this unique experience that happened to me a few days ago and I wanted to share them with everyone here CardsChat forum. Greetings.

I think the main mistake I had was not to consider a 5 and 8-8 in the range of the villain. I felt that on the turn I was at 50/50, but I neglected an important value line in the V range.

Thank you for sharing the hand and your thoughts about it.
Live poker is surely a different world, if villains are raising turns with AdKd on JhJs5h8s boards and then call a river shove with A high.
There should be Ax hands in their range but only of hearts.
In this hand villain played way more out of line than you did and you extracted full value of the situation.

xrhstos said:

In this hand villain played way more out of line than you did and you extracted full value of the situation.

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I think, there was a lot of leveling going on in this hand, because the board is paired. Its a bit like a game of chicken, where one player goes "I dont have a J, but I know, you dont have a J either". And then the other goes "You know, I dont have a J, but you dont have a J either, so I think, you are just messing around". Its still overly ambitious to call a river jam with A high though, because a lot of Heros bluffs will also be A high, so Villain is often just calling for a chopper.

gustav197poker said:

I think the main mistake I had was not to consider a 5 and 8-8 in the range of the villain. I felt that on the turn I was at 50/50, but I neglected an important value line in the V range.

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When people cold call a 3-bet, they should have a pretty narrow and strong range, unless they are really bad. And when you missed with AQ, you literally beat nothing of that range. It should be AQs, AK, TT+ with possibly at least a partial removal of KK+ and AK, if they have a 4-betting range. He was in fact bluffing you on the turn, but he was bluffing with a better hand, and you only had around 25% equity. So folding to that turn raise would have been completely fine.

gustav197poker said:

The bet I made on the turn, seeks to block the villain's hand, because the flush line of hearts was not completed. This movement, I can do with a J in my range. Therefore if I consider this, the amount of J in the range of the villain decreases. The btn can now only have a J combo in its range.

Therefore the V, could make 3-bet on the turn, both with combos of value, as with combos of bluff. At that time, I thought I was in a 50/50 situation.

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Thanks for sharing. I'd like to explore three points though, two related to the bolded statements above.
1- I don't think this is how the first bold statement works. Just because you rep a hand that you do not have does not decrease the amount that V will have that hand. If anything it may be the opposite correlation that holds true to some extent. Since we are more likely to get calls and raises when V has the hand we are trying to rep. This is only true if we actually have the hand that we are representing so that we block V from also having it.

2 - I'm really interested in how you're making these reads. You share the result / conclusion of how you range V but what is this based on? How can you know the difference if it's 50/50 bluff vs value or 80/20? His line to me looks more like Jx, 88, and QQ+ than AdKd. I agree it would make more sense if he had AhKh or KhQh but it's hard to find decent bluffs after that after cold calling in position in a 3 bet pot. How are you coming to these conclusions that he is equally likely to have QQ+ or Jx or 88 as having bluffs here? This seems REALLY optimistic to me. Is there some type of live read we are missing?

3 - The turn raise was fairly pot committing. V is probably never putting you on back door spades in a 3 bet pot with this action. If V thinks you have even 70/30 value to bluff ratio with perhaps missed hearts (which V unblocks) then calling off the rest isn't terrible as the call only represents 26% of the total pot. So if V has some live read that you somehow have 30% bluffs then I can understand why he could think he had enough showdown value to chop or even scoop in a very rare situation vs KhQh.

gustav197poker said:

I think the main mistake I had was not to consider a 5 and 8-8 in the range of the villain. I felt that on the turn I was at 50/50, but I neglected an important value line in the V range.

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As noted by fundiver on the turn you are not close to 50/50. You are way behind, closer to 70/30. Perhaps in this hand the bluffs were over estimated and the value was underestimated. Which leads back to my previous question of why we think it is much closer than it is.

c0rnBr34d said:

Thanks for sharing. I'd like to explore three points though, two related to the bolded statements above.
1- I don't think this is how the first bold statement works. Just because you rep a hand that you do not have does not decrease the amount that V will have that hand. If anything it may be the opposite correlation that holds true to some extent. Since we are more likely to get calls and raises when V has the hand we are trying to rep. This is only true if we actually have the hand that we are representing so that we block V from also having it.

2 - I'm really interested in how you're making these reads. You share the result / conclusion of how you range V but what is this based on? How can you know the difference if it's 50/50 bluff vs value or 80/20? His line to me looks more like Jx, 88, and QQ+ than AdKd. I agree it would make more sense if he had AhKh or KhQh but it's hard to find decent bluffs after that after cold calling in position in a 3 bet pot. How are you coming to these conclusions that he is equally likely to have QQ+ or Jx or 88 as having bluffs here? This seems REALLY optimistic to me. Is there some type of live read we are missing?

3 - The turn raise was fairly pot committing. V is probably never putting you on back door spades in a 3 bet pot with this action. If V thinks you have even 70/30 value to bluff ratio with perhaps missed hearts (which V unblocks) then calling off the rest isn't terrible as the call only represents 26% of the total pot. So if V has some live read that you somehow have 30% bluffs then I can understand why he could think he had enough showdown value to chop or even scoop in a very rare situation vs KhQh.

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1) The board levels our ranges. However, I thought that the villain brought with it an initial value structure, which was my mistake.
2) I made a layout. Yes, I could have been wrong. In fact I forgot 5 and 8-8 in rank V. Which I consider to be my biggest mistake.
3) I agree. But on the basis of the layout I have drawn, I was on the edge of an abyss. Either way I wanted to confuse the villain (taking advantage of the limit of my line), taking into account that is the MDF: 73% wanted to extract value from his entire bluffs catchers structure.