$300 NLHE Full Ring: Is this spew with TP and OESD on turn?

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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$300 NLHE Full Ring: Call a Jam with TP and OESD on turn?

so I'm a good tourney player just starting to dabble in cash. I only play live $1/2 and $1/3 and generally have been winning, but admittedly running well.

This is a $1/3 game. There is a $1 bad beat jackpot drop and a $3 flat rake per flop.

This table is gold. I've been steadily chipping up and mostly the pots that I've lost I got it in good or folded for cheap when I missed. so I'm up to about $480 off $360 starting.

only 1 other decent player at the table. He's very agressive and 2 to my left. He might be better than me, but if so not by much. He has $172. (57bb). He keeps getting in huge pots with mixed results.

OK, so on to the hand. This table allows a $6 button straddle and the SB has to act first. Me and this other decent player are the only 2 players straddling.

So I'm the button and I straddle for $6 off a $480 (160bb) stack.

SB folds
BB min raises to $12 from a $172 (57bb) stack
folds to Old man in MP who flats. off a $300 (100bb) stack.
I flat with :jc4::10s4: on the button.


This old man is super loose passive preflop and then is really fit or fold and easy to read post flop. He's easy to make fold eventually. He'll often peel flop and fold when draws miss on turn or when texture changes.

Pot contains $33 after the rake

Flop is :8c4: :9d4: :4c4:.

BB checks.
Old man bets $15

I decide this pot will be much easier to play/win with the betting lead and if I knock out the very aggressive SB,
so I raise to $40.
SB flats which surprises me. Draws are likely. I really don’t think preflop he’d min raise a pair 88+ from the BB cuz he knows people will call much bigger bets and a min raise has little fold equity at our table. So sets and overpairs are very unlikely except maybe specifically a set of 4s. I could see him having a Combo draw like QcTc or Tc7c or just a naked flush draw. I doubt he has a hand as weak as 2 overs though.

Old man flats which doesn't surprise me at all.

Pot contains $153. Turn is :10h4:

SB jams for $120. Old man insta folds.

I go in the tank. I don’t like it. But it feels bluffy to me. It seems to me most likely he’s got a combo draw if that’s the case I’ve made a pair and am now ahead. If I’m behind I’m not dead. It’s less than a pot size jam. Basically the only hands I’m really in bad shape against are QQ and QJ and 44 and I can’t see him min raising the QQ preflop and I’m blocking the QJ (and I don’t think he’d call on the flop with it since I have the Jc).

what do we think? call or fold? losing $120 doesn't mean anything to my life or bankroll....I just want to make the right decision.
 
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Jblocher1

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I'm sigh calling. We have equity even when we're behind and if he had a monster I think he checks in flow to the raiser (you) and lets you jam for a less than pot size bet. He's either bluffing or he's protecting a hand like two pair or a baby set. It feels like you might be behind but I'm calling anyway
 
TheBigFinn

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Good analysis. The thing you didn't mention was BBs call set up a pot size shove on the turn. The straight draw got there and maybe that's it, but it looks like he was planning the shove and just called the flop to get the old man to call.

Assuming this is the case, what would he do that with that he wouldn't 3-bet PF that beats you? QJ, 76, TT, 99, 88, & 44? What hands do you beat? JJ, straight draws, and flush draw? You have to call $120 to win $273. OK odds, but I think you are beat. Feels like 99, 88, 44.
 
Omahahahaha

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Don't straddle. Defend vs minraise is sound.

Semi bluff raising the flop here is optimistic. You have stated this player is 'loose passive' and 'fit or fold' so it stands to reason that his flop bet represents a good hand. With $36 in the pot you are getting $15 to win roughly $50 or just over 3:1 to proceed. You have only six nut outs. We know 5 cards so there are 47 remaining. We like 6 and dislike 41. This is a ratio of 7:1 against hitting the nuts on the turn. Furthermore, you are not closing the action, so in reality, you are not even getting 3:1 to proceed, because the BB could check raise. The flop is a very clear fold.

Also your post says SB folds pre, but then he takes two to the face on the flop.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Don't straddle. Defend vs minraise is sound.

Semi bluff raising the flop here is optimistic. You have stated this player is 'loose passive' and 'fit or fold' so it stands to reason that his flop bet represents a good hand. With $36 in the pot you are getting $15 to win roughly $50 or just over 3:1 to proceed. You have only six nut outs. We know 5 cards so there are 47 remaining. We like 6 and dislike 41. This is a ratio of 7:1 against hitting the nuts on the turn. Furthermore, you are not closing the action, so in reality, you are not even getting 3:1 to proceed, because the BB could check raise. The flop is a very clear fold.

Also your post says SB folds pre, but then he takes two to the face on the flop.

It’s a Button straddle where you buy last action. Seems Insanely profitable. Though admittedly it decreases stack to pot ratio so at this table so not as profitable as it could be since most players have 100bb or less which turns into 50bb it less...still I’m pretty sure Button straddles are gold...if not...can anyone articulate why not? I’m truly trying to learn.

Yeah my flop raise seems optimistic I’ll agree. Old man is never folding flop I’m just trying to buy it later if I don’t hit...but I take your point. I have many more ways to win than just making the nuts though...much more than 6 outs...cuz the old man is almost never semi bluffing clubs; he’s Check calling clubs all day. So I can rep clubs when they come to get him to fold or I can hit a pair and pot control for showdown. I’m not just trying to win by making the nuts. But I do understand what you’re saying...he’s never folding flop and I don’t close action.

I strongly disagree where you say flop is a clear fold though. He bet less than half pot and we have an OESD and 2 overs on Button vs a bad player. IMO this is a raise or call spot.

Yes I made a typo reporting the hand. The SB did fold pre so the aggressor here was actually the BB. Sorry about that.
 
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Jacki Burkhart

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Good analysis. The thing you didn't mention was BBs call set up a pot size shove on the turn. The straight draw got there and maybe that's it, but it looks like he was planning the shove and just called the flop to get the old man to call.

Assuming this is the case, what would he do that with that he wouldn't 3-bet PF that beats you? QJ, 76, TT, 99, 88, & 44? What hands do you beat? JJ, straight draws, and flush draw? You have to call $120 to win $273. OK odds, but I think you are beat. Feels like 99, 88, 44.


That’s a good point. In hindsight yes it does seem like he’s setting up a turn shove which weights his range to value. But in ranging him we can’t say “hands he wouldn’t 3bet preflop” cuz he never had the opportunity to 3b.

I know the Button straddle adds a weird dynamic but when I straddle Button I Buy last Action, I close the preflop action on the Button. SB acts first and BB acts 2nd. So after SB folds BB was actually the opening raiser and he min clicked it then got 2 flats.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I'm sigh calling. We have equity even when we're behind and if he had a monster I think he checks in flow to the raiser (you) and lets you jam for a less than pot size bet. He's either bluffing or he's protecting a hand like two pair or a baby set. It feels like you might be behind but I'm calling anyway


That’s what I did. Tanked and decided he nearly always checks/shoves a straight here. I think he’ll bet the sets for value and to not let it Check thru and give the draws a free card...but again only 3 likely combos of sets of 4s. Maybe bump it up to 6combos for him occasionally playing 88/99 this way. Sometimes we have same hand. Then all the draws. I finally decided there’s way more than 6 draw combos and I’m never drawing dead. So I sucked it up and unhappily called.

Spoiler: he had 89o
 
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Seems Insanely profitable.
https://redchippoker.com/should-i-straddle-in-poker/

This article gives 2 cases when it’s profitable: a) When you can raise for collect dead money b) Blocking solid players on blinds to play (I don't really understand why you would want to block anyone OOP on playing though, maybe to isolate fish is the key here)

Gerally speaking against fish you want to be as deep as possible, right? Mistakes multiply street by street. Even Tonkaa has said that later on tourney, more shallow, he can beat anyone.

Btw I really liked how you wrote the question, it’s very lively.
 
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Jacki Burkhart

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https://redchippoker.com/should-i-straddle-in-poker/

This article gives 2 cases when it’s profitable: a) When you can raise for collect dead money b) Blocking solid players on blinds to play (I don't really understand why you would want to block anyone OOP on playing though, maybe to isolate fish is the key here)

Gerally speaking against fish you want to be as deep as possible, right? Mistakes multiply street by street. Even Tonkaa has said that later on tourney, more shallow, he can beat anyone.

Btw I really liked how you wrote the question, it’s very lively.


thanks for that video it was great and concise!

yeah I've never in my life limped UTG but I almost always Button straddle/missisippi straddle. I will now re-evaluate. As it turns out in this hand it was 1 of the "profitable situations to straddle" (though I didn't plan it this way) since the only other decent player at the table was in the BB it should hypothetically knock him out of my pot. But...it didn't and I got stacked!!

They also say "If you've got good players on your left you should already be looking for a table change". I don't know if I agree....I mean sure hypothetically when there are infitinte tables but there are only 2 $1/3 tables and this table is significantly easier than the other table. 1 decent dude on my left plus 7 fish seems like NOT a table change to me. And seat changing won't work. I already seat changed him once and then he seat changed me! haha :D I decided I didn't care enough to keep up that war since he's not world class or anything and I was only gonna stay 2-3 hours. and he kept buying in short for some reason.
 
Jillychemung

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Button straddles - don't really like them myself. As already said they reduce the SPR a lot at a typical table since there are usually 4-5 short stacks. My experience is that they also really tighten up the game. Less open limping and when there is an EP raise there is less cold calling. Now if everyone is playing full stacks and it is still a limp fest then yeah a BTN straddle is nice.
 
Beanfacekilla

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so I'm a good tourney player just starting to dabble in cash. I only play live $1/2 and $1/3 and generally have been winning, but admittedly running well.

This is a $1/3 game. There is a $1 bad beat jackpot drop and a $3 flat rake per flop.

This table is gold. I've been steadily chipping up and mostly the pots that I've lost I got it in good or folded for cheap when I missed. so I'm up to about $480 off $360 starting.

only 1 other decent player at the table. He's very agressive and 2 to my left. He might be better than me, but if so not by much. He has $172. (57bb). He keeps getting in huge pots with mixed results.

OK, so on to the hand. This table allows a $6 button straddle and the SB has to act first. Me and this other decent player are the only 2 players straddling.

So I'm the button and I straddle for $6 off a $480 (160bb) stack.

SB folds
BB min raises to $12 from a $172 (57bb) stack
folds to Old man in MP who flats. off a $300 (100bb) stack.
I flat with :jc4::10s4: on the button.


This old man is super loose passive preflop and then is really fit or fold and easy to read post flop. He's easy to make fold eventually. He'll often peel flop and fold when draws miss on turn or when texture changes.

Pot contains $33 after the rake

Flop is :8c4: :9d4: :4c4:.

BB checks.
Old man bets $15

I decide this pot will be much easier to play/win with the betting lead and if I knock out the very aggressive SB,
so I raise to $40.
SB flats which surprises me. Draws are likely. I really don’t think preflop he’d min raise a pair 88+ from the BB cuz he knows people will call much bigger bets and a min raise has little fold equity at our table. So sets and overpairs are very unlikely except maybe specifically a set of 4s. I could see him having a Combo draw like QcTc or Tc7c or just a naked flush draw. I doubt he has a hand as weak as 2 overs though.

Old man flats which doesn't surprise me at all.

Pot contains $153. Turn is :10h4:

SB jams for $120. Old man insta folds.

I go in the tank. I don’t like it. But it feels bluffy to me. It seems to me most likely he’s got a combo draw if that’s the case I’ve made a pair and am now ahead. If I’m behind I’m not dead. It’s less than a pot size jam. Basically the only hands I’m really in bad shape against are QQ and QJ and 44 and I can’t see him min raising the QQ preflop and I’m blocking the QJ (and I don’t think he’d call on the flop with it since I have the Jc).

what do we think? call or fold? losing $120 doesn't mean anything to my life or bankroll....I just want to make the right decision.


I personally feel that at these stakes, this is a common thing for people to do.

Generally, when fishy players make small pot sweetener raises, they have small pairs at best, and junk at worst.

However, they will often take these lines when they improve. It really depends on history and your read. Most of the time, unless V is really spewy, he's gonna have 2p+ here alot. 6-7, GS that got there, or 2p hands.

Usually when this happens to me, they improved, and they are terrified of getting drawn out on. Not always though.



I'm kinda crazy I might 3b this guy pre here. I think he has a weak hand, and I wouldn't be worried about old man either. Might 3b. Our hand isn't that good.


Like he cuts $12, 1 call, if I 3b I make it like $45 or $50.



These are just some thoughts. I haven't read any of the replies, I just wanted to try and offer my two cents.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I personally like BTN straddles. I see no downside. We have position, it generates action, it gives us a better, more active image, it's good for the game, etc.

It's a little spewy yes. But if you wanna get paid off later I feel like you have to be active and give action. I BTN straddle alot. Maybe I'm torching money, but I think the benefits are real, for the reasons I listed above.


Where is this at Jacki? What room?
 
Jblocher1

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I personally like BTN straddles. I see no downside. We have position, it generates action, it gives us a better, more active image, it's good for the game, etc.



It's a little spewy yes. But if you wanna get paid off later I feel like you have to be active and give action. I BTN straddle alot. Maybe I'm torching money, but I think the benefits are real, for the reasons I listed above.





Where is this at Jacki? What room?



I agree. I straddle 100% of buttons if I feel like I have a post flop edge vs table
 
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and he kept buying in short for some reason.

As you know from tournament playing, short stack allows small SPR and makes decisions easier and this is a perfect example. When he flat the $40 and he is a good player, it has to mean he is committed to the pot. If he was 300bb deep, he can't play it that way.

His SPR was 4.85 and might have shoved even flopping just top pair/weak kicker. There was no reraise preflop, so he would have to feel pretty good if he hit the flop with top pair. As it happened, he made top two, a very good hand with low SPR, that he slowplayed.

I imagine he didn't love the T, but realistically who could it have helped against his holdings? Bottom end straight draw, gutshot draw, or 9T which he has a blocker for.

I think calling the flop bet of $15 might have gotten you a cheap turn card, but he probably would have check raised if you hadn't bet it for him.

It was a very deceptive raise from BB. I would make a mental note that you might want to semibluff squeeze him when you are in position with a hand like TJ. That is the main benefit of the button straddle, position on every street.

As played on river, it would be a judgement call. If you think he has large enough bluffing range, gotta call.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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FWIW the guy in BB or SB (whatever) opened pot sweetener type raise with 9 high. And he isn't playing full stack.

I personally think this is all we need to know. This guy is a fish. I don't think a solid player would do this ever. I would attack this players small ish opens until he adjusts, and then we re adjust.
 
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