$300 NLHE Full Ring: Pocket Aces turned trips, would you play this way?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Pocket Aces turned trips, would you play this way?

Game:
NLHE
Max buy-in: $300
Blinds:$1/3
7 handed

Hero:
Stack: $130
Pos: BTN
Hand: AcAs

Villain:
Stack: $350
Pos: BB
Villain is Tight player, not overly aggressive but calls a little more than he should. Mostly out of suspicions because there have been a lot of bluffs at the table. However I definitely wouldn't classify him as a calling station.

Action:

Preflop:
SB posts small blind $1
BB posts big blind $3
MP calls $3
MP+1 calls $3
CO calls $3
Hero calls $3
BB raises to $15
MP calls $15
MP+1 folds
CO folds
Hero calls 15$

Flop (52$):
9c Jh Kd

BB bets 15$
MP calls 15$
Hero raises to 30$
BB calls 30$
MP calls 30$

Turn (142$):
Ad

BB checks
MP checks
Hero raises all in to 85$
BB calls 85$
MP folds
 
Omahahahaha

Omahahahaha

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no i would not min raise the flop and give tremendous odds for anyone who wanted to draw out on me.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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How much would you have bet?
 
TimovieMan

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Raise to 18$ preflop.
As played, raise to 50$ preflop the second time.
As played, raise to 60$ on the flop or shove.

As played, at least you got the river right.

Do you really think that keeping everybody in, and giving them correct odds to draw out on you, is going to win you the hand with AA?
Fancy Play Syndrome much?
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Raise to 18$ preflop.
As played, raise to 50$ preflop the second time.
As played, raise to 60$ on the flop or shove.

As played, at least you got the river right.

Do you really think that keeping everybody in, and giving them correct odds to draw out on you, is going to win you the hand with AA?
Fancy Play Syndrome much?

Possibly, I think I wanted to squeeze out maximum value and was afraid that playing too aggressively wouldn't have earned nearly as much.
 
Omahahahaha

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also I would raise pre the first time, but if I limped I would limp reraise not limp call. as played on the flop I make it $100 instead of $30.


It seems you are in the habit of making tiny raises. Let me assure you offering your opponents attractive odds to proceed is a recipe for disaster. As a general rule you should try to offer them no more than 3:1.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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also I would raise pre the first time, but if I limped I would limp reraise not limp call. as played on the flop I make it $100 instead of $30.


It seems you are in the habit of making tiny raises. Let me assure you offering your opponents attractive odds to proceed is a recipe for disaster. As a general rule you should try to offer them no more than 3:1.

If I bet 100 on the flop, wouldn't the overbet make them more likely to call? Are we trying to fold them, or get a call for value?

I felt like I got a lot of information by probing the pot with my raise on the flop, as far as their action on the turn gave me the impression that they had a pair or a draw but didn't yet have a strong made hand by the turn. I think my bet to 85 on the flop gave him approximately 1:4 or 1:3 to call. I was pretty sure one of them had a pair and the other was drawing to a straight.

I don't know if I agree with shoving on the flop because I don't think I had much information then and the board texture could have given somebody two pair or a made straight pretty easily from the flop.
 
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Trabendo_daze

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IMO you're playing a little passively. Go ahead and raise preflop, no need to fool around. Also, you've got to raise the flop more. They have odds to call with inside straight draws the way you've played it. You've got to charge them more and protect your hand. Suggested raise sizes above should help.
 
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You butchered this hand about as badly as possible. I don't get the obsession with limping, in almost any case raising preflop will be more +ev, the flat was the worst play possible, you have one pair, the most common hand at showdown is 2 pair.
 
TimovieMan

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Possibly, I think I wanted to squeeze out maximum value and was afraid that playing too aggressively wouldn't have earned nearly as much.
Your thinking is reversed.

Playing passively and/or giving everyone the odds to draw out means you'll win the hand way less often, and you will pay them the max if they hit (while they will pay the least if they miss).

Playing aggressively is the way you win the hand.
It gets you heads-up or 3-way postflop, in which case you're a massive favourite (which you weren't as much vs a field). And if they see a flop after a big preflop raise, then they likely have something as well that they probably won't be willing to lay down too easily. That means they'll call your (now bigger) c-bet as well. At this point you should already have more money in the pot with massive odds of winning it, than there was vs that field while you were looking more and more like the underdog...

If I bet 100 on the flop, wouldn't the overbet make them more likely to call? Are we trying to fold them, or get a call for value?
We're trying to fold better hands and getting calls for value by weaker hands.
If you think an overbet makes them more likely to call, then that's exactly what we want, no?

I don't know if I agree with shoving on the flop because I don't think I had much information then and the board texture could have given somebody two pair or a made straight pretty easily from the flop.
If they have a made straight and slowplay until the river, you won't find out immediately either. By betting big immediately, they'll show strength sooner as well.
 
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mbrenneman0

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So if I shoved on the flop, I would have taken down $82. I suppose that would have been a nice score, but do we shove with top pair on a board like that? Like just based on the play until my action on the flop, what do we put our opponents on? On the flop, I was worried about either a made straight or two pair..
 
TimovieMan

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So if I shoved on the flop, I would have taken down $82. I suppose that would have been a nice score, but do we shove with top pair on a board like that? Like just based on the play until my action on the flop, what do we put our opponents on? On the flop, I was worried about either a made straight or two pair..
And you think people let go of top pair so easily while we have an OVERpair? Most Kx hands are calling. You win.
 
mbrenneman0

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And you think people let go of top pair so easily while we have an OVERpair? Most Kx hands are calling. You win.
I'm thinking they're only calling a shove on the flop with a better hand than my pair
 
mbrenneman0

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Idk, I think after reading the responses, next time this situation comes up. if i know the bb is going raise a limped pot then ill check raise preflop by 3x the big blind's bet, or raise preflop by big blind times the number of limpers if I don't think the big blind will raise. And then value bet the size of the pot on the flop if no one shows aggression
 
6

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I apologise in advance if I come across as a dick, but I'm going to be brutally honest with you: everything about the way you played this hand makes you look like a passive fish. I'll list all the reasons why:

1) Your stack size is too short. You could've won far more value with AA if you'd topped up to $300. Instead, you're playing with a $130 stack, which hugely limits your potential to win big. You should top up to 100bb. Also, when I see someone with less than 50bb on the table, I generally assume that they're a fish (and the majority of the time, I'm right).

2) You limped in preflop in a multiway pot. Honestly, this is awful play. Imagine if someone has 22 and the flop comes K62. They paid $3 to see a flop and now they're going to win $130 because you won't be able to fold your overpair against their set. Imagine if someone has 75hh and the flop comes Jh 6h 4c. They paid $3 to see a flop and now they have a combo draw which could very easily beat you by the river. When you have a hand like AA which has good showdown value, you do not want to be playing a multiway pot and you do not want to let people with speculative hands (low pocket pairs, suited connectors) see a cheap flop and potentially hit a strong hand like a set, straight or flush. You want to make them pay to see a flop. Honestly, with 3 limpers, I'd be raising to about $24 preflop. And after you limped in and you were lucky enough to get raised, this is the perfect opportunity for you to re-raise to something like $45, which will leave you with less than a pot-sized bet left on the flop and make it very easy for you to get your stack in. You messed up both times by being passive, rather than aggressive.

3) On the flop, as played, you should just be shoving here. You have slightly more than a pot-sized bet left and trust me, at this level, hands like KT, KQ and AK will never fold, so you want to maximise value off those hands before an Ace comes that slows them down. If someone happens to have flopped 2 pairs, a set or a straight, then that's just bad luck (also your own fault for allowing this to happen by your preflop action). Min-raising the flop is literally the worst thing you could do (aside from folding), because it gives away the strength of your hand whilst also extracting very little value from hands that you beat and also giving draws a great price to call and suck out on you. Only passive fish min-raise. You'll never see a good poker player make a min-raise from $15 to $30. They'll either make a normal sized raise (to anything between $45 and shoving), or they won't raise at all.

On a more positive note, it's great that you've posted this hand here on this forum. A lot of players don't seek help and thus they never improve their game. You've come to the right place for help. Don't be discouraged by any of the advice I give you. I only want you to be the best poker player that you can be. I used to play like you before I learnt how to play standard Tight-Aggressive poker and before I learnt that fast-playing strong hands and value betting fish as hard as possible is generally the way to make money. Don't slow play at this level. It doesn't work. The main mistakes that players at this level make are: not value betting enough, betting too small and raising too small. If you can improve those aspects of your game, then you'll be crushing 1/3 in no time!
 
mbrenneman0

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Thank you so much for your well thought out and informed post, and most of all the clarity of your explanation. Not dickish at all haha. Too be honest, when I posted this hand I really wanted to hear someone tell me it was a bad beat. I believed it was, but I knew that there was a chance it wasn't and I should post it before writing it off as one. This is my 4th time playing live, and my 4th time playing for money since 2011 (I wasn't good back then, but back then it didn't cost as much to make mistakes so I didn't care as much about learning from them... As Phil Ivey says: "you have to lose money to learn")

Now that I have a few responses, ill reveal the villain's hand: He had A Q suited hearts and 10c came on the river. Any thoughts on the way he played the hand, or any insight on whether or not playing as suggested (raising preflop and shoving on the flop) would be successful against his hand?
 
6

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Thank you so much for your well thought out and informed post, and most of all the clarity of your explanation. Not dickish at all haha. Too be honest, when I posted this hand I really wanted to hear someone tell me it was a bad beat. I believed it was, but I knew that there was a chance it wasn't and I should post it before writing it off as one. This is my 4th time playing live, and my 4th time playing for money since 2011 (I wasn't good back then, but back then it didn't cost as much to make mistakes so I didn't care as much about learning from them... As Phil Ivey says: "you have to lose money to learn")

Now that I have a few responses, ill reveal the villain's hand: He had A Q suited hearts and 10c came on the river. Any thoughts on the way he played the hand, or any insight on whether or not playing as suggested (raising preflop and shoving on the flop) would be successful against his hand?

No worries! I'm glad to have been some assistance.

If you'd raised preflop to $24, then AQs is almost definitely calling from the BB. It's tough to say what MP will do, but let's say he calls too and let's say he has QJ. Now there's about $80 in the pot and you have an overpair. The BB villain checks (since he's not the preflop raiser), MP checks too and you fire a continuation bet of $50. Both villains should fold here, however, if the villains choose to call you with a gutshot and middle pair respectively, then you can rest assured that you did everything right and got most of your money in as a massive favourite. I'd love it if my overpairs got action from middle pairs and gutshots. If the BB villain makes the poor decision of calling the flop and turns an Ace, he'll never fold TPTK and will consequently suck out on the river, but that's nothing you need to worry about. That would be a genuine suckout.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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No worries! I'm glad to have been some assistance.

If you'd raised preflop to $24, then AQs is almost definitely calling from the BB. It's tough to say what MP will do, but let's say he calls too and let's say he has QJ. Now there's about $80 in the pot and you have an overpair. The BB villain checks (since he's not the preflop raiser), MP checks too and you fire a continuation bet of $50. Both villains should fold here, however, if the villains choose to call you with a gutshot and middle pair respectively, then you can rest assured that you did everything right and got most of your money in as a massive favourite. I'd love it if my overpairs got action from middle pairs and gutshots. If the BB villain makes the poor decision of calling the flop and turns an Ace, he'll never fold TPTK and will consequently suck out on the river, but that's nothing you need to worry about. That would be a genuine suckout.
Nice analysis. So its only fair to call it a bad beat if I played it right and still lost, but since I didn't play it right I have nothing to blame but myself...

I'm thinking MP had K10 off or suited. It took her a very long time to fold (felt like 2 minutes, but who knows how long a moment is when you've just shoved) she was a smart player, seemed to know the math and seemed keen on her reads. She was just there while her boyfriend played 5/10. But seemed to thoroughly enjoy the game.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I haven't read responses yet.

1. Why do you only have $130? At least have 70 bigs, but I prefer 100 bigs.

2. Raise preflop. What are you limping on the button for? Raise dude. Value. $15-20 pre.

3. As played (preflop, after you limped BTN for some unknown reason) you could just fire AI. Someone will probably call you out of spite.

4. Flop is pretty bad for your hand. If you are going to raise now, get ready to get stacked. However, (as played) considering you had less than 50 bigs starting the hand, just move in OTF. But it would be better with your stack to raise $15-$20 PF, then bet/get it in on the flop. Your moves are simple, because you are short stacked. Get it in pre or on the flop, and hope the shit holds up.

5. Don't try to be fancy with AA. Just raise preflop. Try to get it HU. 3-way max. I thought I should say this twice, to try and hammer this point home.

6. Because of your passive preflop line, your opponents have no idea where you are. Therefore, they will play their hands (that you might be ahead of) with more confidence, and mess up any reads you might be able to get otherwise. You have under-repped your hand by your passive actions.

7. The course of action(s) you took in this hand made everything much more complicated. With your stack, it's not at all complicated. Get it in on the flop or preflop.


I hope this helps.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Possibly, I think I wanted to squeeze out maximum value and was afraid that playing too aggressively wouldn't have earned nearly as much.



Good grief, no man. :)

How can we squeeze out value by limping in preflop? We build a pot, right from the beginning.

Someone said $18 preflop, that sounds about right, maybe a tiny bit more considering limpers. Then we are getting it in on flop.

You can't make money by letting people in the pot cheap, not taking control of the betting (you're on the button! Come on dude!).

Raise preflop, build a pot, get control of the hand, right from the beginning.


You may be scared to lose your money or something, cause your play seems scared. If that's true, it will be tough to play well.
 
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fletchdad

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Lots of good advice ITT. And, OP, you seem more than willing to listen and learn.

Win/win.
 
mbrenneman0

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You may be scared to lose your money or something, cause your play seems scared. If that's true, it will be tough to play well.

Probably. I don't think it was really scared of losing my money, maybe it was more just scared of the emotional side of losing that hand. I was short stacked for awhile hovering between 100-200 for a couple hours, and was waiting for those pocket aces. I know statistically, pocket aces come up once every 220 hands (or every six hours at 35 hands/hour) and like clock work... On the 6th hour at the table... I was on the button and looked down and saw the two rockets... I think i saw it as my chance to finally break above my original $300 buy in...maybe I just worked myself up for that hand and got psyched out. I made plays earlier in the night that were much more fearless (Like 3betting pocket Ks with 100$ when the 2bet was 15$, taking down an 85$ pot without even seeing the flop)

I can't stop thinking though about how I had 92% hand equity against his straight when I pushed on the turn though... And I felt like I *knew* he hadn't made his straight with the ace on the turn and that he either needed the q or the ten... Even had 19% chance to improve even further to aces full
 
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mbrenneman0

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I haven't read responses yet.

1. Why do you only have $130? At least have 70 bigs, but I prefer 100 bigs.

2. Raise preflop. What are you limping on the button for? Raise dude. Value. $15-20 pre.

3. As played (preflop, after you limped BTN for some unknown reason) you could just fire AI. Someone will probably call you out of spite.

4. Flop is pretty bad for your hand. If you are going to raise now, get ready to get stacked. However, (as played) considering you had less than 50 bigs starting the hand, just move in OTF. But it would be better with your stack to raise $15-$20 PF, then bet/get it in on the flop. Your moves are simple, because you are short stacked. Get it in pre or on the flop, and hope the shit holds up.

5. Don't try to be fancy with AA. Just raise preflop. Try to get it HU. 3-way max. I thought I should say this twice, to try and hammer this point home.

6. Because of your passive preflop line, your opponents have no idea where you are. Therefore, they will play their hands (that you might be ahead of) with more confidence, and mess up any reads you might be able to get otherwise. You have under-repped your hand by your passive actions.

7. The course of action(s) you took in this hand made everything much more complicated. With your stack, it's not at all complicated. Get it in on the flop or preflop.


I hope this helps.
Definitely helps. A lot of information in your post to absorb and process. I feel like some of this is stuff I know, but just haven't had the discipline to stick to. Stuff in here to learn from though and hearing it applied to losing this hand definitely helps it sink in. Like I know short stack strategy is generally to get real nitty and go all in or get out of the way, but for some reason when I was playing that hand, short stack strategy wasn't even a thought in my mind...
 
J

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Definitely helps. A lot of information in your post to absorb and process. I feel like some of this is stuff I know, but just haven't had the discipline to stick to. Stuff in here to learn from though and hearing it applied to losing this hand definitely helps it sink in. Like I know short stack strategy is generally to get real nitty and go all in or get out of the way, but for some reason when I was playing that hand, short stack strategy wasn't even a thought in my mind...


The worst thing about short stacking at live games, is that rake is high unless at a big metropolitan area, my local casino is 6+1, so your putting yourself at a big disadvantage by short stacking in this game if you want to be a winner long term. Were just here to be constructive, some times can come off a bit brash, but I don't think anyone here means bad, unless they are asking for it. To me it seems like you have the I got a big hand syndrome and I must extract the max. Do not think like this, players still make tons of mistakes, playing this passively really only lets you make them. Ultimately to make money in the game of poker is about making less mistakes than your opponent.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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The worst thing about short stacking at live games, is that rake is high unless at a big metropolitan area, my local casino is 6+1, so your putting yourself at a big disadvantage by short stacking in this game if you want to be a winner long term. Were just here to be constructive, some times can come off a bit brash, but I don't think anyone here means bad, unless they are asking for it. To me it seems like you have the I got a big hand syndrome and I must extract the max. Do not think like this, players still make tons of mistakes, playing this passively really only lets you make them. Ultimately to make money in the game of poker is about making less mistakes than your opponent.

anybody who wants to help me be profitable is fine in my book haha

i think the rake at the horseshoe in baltimore is something like 5% of the pot up to $5. im probably wrong.


good advice, really appreciate everyone's input and advice. im learning a lot through this site. thank you guys :]
 
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