25NL: KK UTG with huge multiway PF action.

Stick66

Stick66

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Reg-stack MP villain is loose at 68/28/2.5 over 41 hands. 0% Calls Open, 46% WTSD and 42% 3bet.
Short-stack BB villain is a call station at 45/0/0.2 over 31 hands. 63% Calls Open and 33% WTSD.

I made my 4-bet $9.00 to get the SS BB all in and squeeze out the RS MP. I was thinking that the Station wouldn't call all that without a good hand, but his short stack could have widened his range. Then the LAG had me really stumped. At that moment, I felt my reads were messed up.

During my last turn, I have over $19 behind. But the pot was $42.90, giving me 2.2-1 pot odds.

A) How much does the 3-way action hurt my KK strength? Did I have the right pot conditions to call here?
B) Based on the player types I described, what ranges should I have put them on? How does the small stack affect both their ranges?


***** Hand History for Game 24878007225 *****
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, February 12, 09:51:33 ET 2009
Table Etamin X (real money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 2: Dr.DoomCS ( $26.35 USD )
Seat 3: caroline869 ( $23.75 USD )
Seat 4: skinner_1099 ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 5: valo325423 ( $26.15 USD )
Seat 6: catleonet ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 7: HaydenClair ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 8: cmv102232 ( $9.05 USD )
Seat 9: MrSticker66 ( $29.85 USD )
HaydenClair posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
cmv102232 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MrSticker66 [ Kh Kc ]
MrSticker66 raises [$1.00 USD]
Dr.DoomCS folds
caroline869 raises [$1.75 USD]
skinner_1099 folds
valo325423 folds
catleonet folds
HaydenClair folds
cmv102232 calls [$1.50 USD]
MrSticker66 raises [$9.00 USD]
caroline869 raises [$22.00 USD]
cmv102232 calls [$7.30 USD]
MrSticker66 ????



???
 
F

feitr

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you'd be hard pressed to fold vs a 14/12 or something let alone an absolute spaz so obviously you just shove and you should never question it even if both villains show up with AA.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Reg-stack has shoved for less than you've got so it's only $13.75 to call in a $42.90 pot. That's more like pot odds of over 3:1.

The minraise-shove on the reg-stacked villain's part makes me suspicious, but the pot's too big for me to fold at this stage. I think it's reasonable to put the reg-stack on JJ+/AK (maybe even wider, but let's use this for the sake of the argument) and AA is really the only part of that we're worried about.

Putting the calling station on a random hand, the figures look like this:

(equity / win / tie)
Hand 0: 52.301% 50.70% 01.60% { KcKh }
Hand 1: 32.614% 30.98% 01.63% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 15.085% 14.87% 00.21% { random }

52% equity + better than 3:1 = call to me.
 
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buddysmoker

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You have to ship it here no way am i folding against two weak players. Worst case you still have a min. of 65% equity against their ranges. If one of them happens to have aces then nothing you can do.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Worst case you still have a min. of 65% equity against their ranges.

Just wondering where you get this figure from?

Worst case is we're up against the reg-stack holding AA, in which case we've got less than 20% equity.
 
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feitr

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Just wondering where you get this figure from?

Worst case is we're up against the reg-stack holding AA, in which case we've got less than 20% equity.

lol the station probably has like 88 or something and the re-stack guy is an absolute nut preflop and has a super wide range.
 
ChuckTs

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This is a no-question stack. Always.

Worst case scenario is irrelevant - we have a massive equity edge here so we push.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Yep, I messed up then. I thought I was being clever by folding, but I guess stacking would have been the correct play even if I lost. I just kept thinking "With all this action, one of them HAS to have Aces." Plus I saw that I still had $19+ left in my stack. Almost a full buy-in. Oh well. Live and learn.

Thanks to those who responded.

***** Hand History for Game 24878007225 *****
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, February 12, 09:51:33 ET 2009
Table Etamin X (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 2: Dr.DoomCS ( $26.35 USD )
Seat 3: caroline869 ( $23.75 USD )
Seat 4: skinner_1099 ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 5: valo325423 ( $26.15 USD )
Seat 6: catleonet ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 7: HaydenClair ( $25.00 USD )
Seat 8: cmv102232 ( $9.05 USD )
Seat 9: MrSticker66 ( $29.85 USD )
HaydenClair posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
cmv102232 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MrSticker66 [ Kh Kc ]
MrSticker66 raises [$1.00 USD]
Dr.DoomCS folds
caroline869 raises [$1.75 USD]
skinner_1099 folds
valo325423 folds
catleonet folds
HaydenClair folds
cmv102232 calls [$1.50 USD]
MrSticker66 raises [$9.00 USD]
caroline869 raises [$22.00 USD]
cmv102232 calls [$7.30 USD]
MrSticker66 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Ah, Qh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
caroline869 shows [As, Qc ]
caroline869 wins $1.80 USD from main pot
caroline869 wins $25.90 USD from main pot
cmv102232 doesn't show [3h, 4h ]
caroline869 wins $13.75 USD from main pot
 
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feitr

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ugh, well you can just pretend the BB isn't even in the hand. For one even if he had AA your giant equity edge in the side pot more than makes up for it. But in general BB type players will always show up with total junk like small-mid pps when they just call call call. So only person you worry about is the crazy, and do you really have any idea how wide 42% 3B is? They are absolutely nuts preflop (wide 3B translates into light stupid 4Bing range) and KK is the complete stone cold nuts vs both those ranges. You should be snap shoving with a giant grin on your face even if you were 300bbs deep.
 
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buddysmoker

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Just wondering where you get this figure from?

Worst case is we're up against the reg-stack holding AA, in which case we've got less than 20% equity.

What do you mean where did I get this figure from If nobody has AA you got around 65% equity The reg-stacks range is so wide Id be surprised if he showed up with anything better than AJ
 
OzExorcist

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What do you mean where did I get this figure from If nobody has AA you got around 65% equity The reg-stacks range is so wide Id be surprised if he showed up with anything better than AJ

Yeah - but you said "worst case". "Worst case" is the reg-stack villain has AA and we've got less than 20% equity.

You need to assess equity against a range of hands. You've said the word but ignored what it actually means - you can't exclude the top end of your opponent's range just because it's inconvenient. Donks and maniacs catch premium hands just as often as the rest of us.

As for the rest of the hand, LOL at calling station turning up with 34s - gg IMO :p
 
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feitr

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Ya but AA is 6 combos out of a billion hands such a terrible villain could be doing this wit so it isn't going to affect your equity much at all.
 
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buddysmoker

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I think its standard for a calling station to stackoff with 34s
 
OzExorcist

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Ya but AA is 6 combos out of a billion hands such a terrible villain could be doing this wit so it isn't going to affect your equity much at all.

Yes, I know. So I'm clear, my thoughts on the actual hand are in my first post - even if we give the maniac a range much more conservative than he deserves, we're still well ahead and it's an easy call.

I'm giving up on anything said after that, contemplating further response is making my head hurt.
 
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EvilEmperor

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For 100bb deep it's pretty standard to get all in pf and get stacked with your KK against AA. Occasionally you'll be pleasantly surprised with lesser holdings for villain.
 
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