$25NL, I bluff!

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
Both opponents seem decent.

CO opens to $.75, I call on the button with 66. Small blind calls.

Flop comes 4h 2d Ad, pot is ~$2.50. Small blind checks, CO checks, and I bet $2, intending for it to be the last money I put in the pot unimproved.

My reasoning is that SB, if actually decent, is more likely to be on a speculative hand than A-x, and that CO's check much more often than not represents weakness.

Good bluff? Of course, I may be betting with the best hand, but then that's OK too. If called, I assume that I'm crushed and shut down.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
The only problem I have with that play is that it rarely works. What type of hand do you think your opponents put you on? It is hard for them to put you on an ace here, maybe AJ or A10, but most likely they put you on exactly what you have, air. Discontinue this hand as soon as you see any type of resistance.
I normally just check behind here to try and spike a six. If someone is slow playing AK or have a scared KK-JJ, you are not going to be able to get them to fold out with a bet. I just check behind here and hope the turn brings me some luck. If checked to again on the turn and no 6 shows up, I would be tempted to bet at it, but it would all be read dependent.
Also, I feel like the pot is not large enough to bluff at, but then again, picking up those small uncontested pots really do help.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
The only problem I have with that play is that it rarely works. What type of hand do you think your opponents put you on? It is hard for them to put you on an ace here, maybe AJ or A10, but most likely they put you on exactly what you have, air. Discontinue this hand as soon as you see any type of resistance.
I normally just check behind here to try and spike a six. If someone is slow playing AK or have a scared KK-JJ, you are not going to be able to get them to fold out with a bet. I just check behind here and hope the turn brings me some luck. If checked to again on the turn and no 6 shows up, I would be tempted to bet at it, but it would all be read dependent.
Also, I feel like the pot is not large enough to bluff at, but then again, picking up those small uncontested pots really do help.
You make good points. :)

I had only played 50 hands at this table, but both opponents had decently TAG:ish stats. I was representing the ace, of course, and I don't think it's really that far-fetched to think I could have it. I call with a lot of hands on the button, and hands like AJs+ and AQo are definitely in my range.

What I believe might make this bluff work, though (and I fully appreciate that it might not be enough, so please keep arguing with me) is that CO might be on a steal with a weaker-than-normal hand. Furthermore, it's really difficult for the small blind to continue with a hand weaker than top-pair here given that he's not closing the action. At its core, this is a little bit like doing a squeeze play on the small blind. I'm definitely in trouble versus the cut-off if he calls, though.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
Chips
0
this is fine. i'd expect CO to bet an A the majority of the time, so he probably doesn't have it. SB could, because checking to the raiser regardless of holding is pretty standard fare, but his range is much wider than that. FP can easily rep an A here. he called a raise in position, and people like to play As. it's not as if they know his exact tendencies. most of what they have to go by is generalizing, and in general there are many As in an unknown's range here

also, because you have a pair there can actually be value in a bet. you can get called by 33, 55, and flush draws, and end up getting a free showdown without improving because you bet the flop

yeah if everyone folds you probably had the best hand anyway, but so many turns can outdraw you or freeze you up when you have to face a bet, taking a stab now is completely fine imo
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
I was waiting for combu, chuck, or tenbob to tell me otherwise. And there it is.
Keep in mind FP that I am still a 10NL 4-5 tabler, and even though the jump from 10NL to 25NL doesn't seem like much, the play differs substantially from my personal experience.
I think I need to add to my sig real quick.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Chips
0
So was I the only person who was expecting to see an actual bluff here based on the title and was disapointed to see a question on whether to bet the flop or not? :).

No offense, I just thought I was gonna see a shove or something and I'm seeing a $2 bet. Oh well.

But on the hand, I think betting here is fine. I wouldn't be the full $2 because someone that doesn't beat your hand is calling for either $2 or the $1.50ish I'd do here. It's multi-way as well so it's possible one has an A and has kicker problems, or even hit a set and just wants someone to bet at it. But either way, most hands that fold to $2 would also fold to $1.50 here, and the "bluff" has to be less successful in the long run if you only bet $1.50.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
Yeah, but see... If I was betting an ace, I'd bet the full $2 here. Then again, for the sake of pot control maybe I should reconsider betting the pot with top pair on the flop as well.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
Chips
0
Personally, If I intend on bluffing a small pair on that type of board I will not slow down as the others have.
As you know, aggression is the key to any successful bluff and not betting this when checked to would be a terrible mistake.
As for the amount to bet, 3/4 to pot size.
But you are holding a pair so would this not be considered a semi-bluff?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
No; a semibluff is done with a reasonable amount of outs. If I'm behind, I'm drawing to only 2 outs.

As has been pointed out, my hand may be best when I bet, which means I'm not "bluffing", I'm "protecting." In essence, however, I feel that the two are not separate on this board since I'm not going to win a showdown unless everyone checks down (and why would everyone check also the turn?) My way of winning this pot, regardless of if I have the best hand or not, is either to check and pray for the 4% chance of hitting a set, or bet and try to pick it up unimproved right away.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
I like it. Based on the action so far, your hand is probably best but we need to bet because it probably won't be by the time showdown comes. Not to sound cocky, but it's pretty simple really.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
Yea agreed. A weak line taken by both opponents, in a raised pot when we have position, its perfect, but I see this as a value bet almost never on a NLHE table. Opponents love giving you credit for the ace here, and lot of times actually fold their 88/99 type hands.

This is also a very easy hand to get away from if we are called.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
I agree with what each of you are saying, but I highly doubt 88/99 hands are folding here. I just feel that we should just save that extra $1.50 or $2 instead of "bluffing" it off. Maybe I am a nit but for the most part, I try not to give money away. I really do not see both of them folding here, especially the CO.
If the CO had maybe weak hand like KQ or KJ, they would fold it, but from my experience at 10NL and 25NL, even those types of hands attempt to make the hero call.
You did say that they had TAGish stats, which makes me think CO will call your bet to try and see a free showdown with their 77+.
I am not saying that "bluffing" this pot is a horrible play, I am just stating what I would do in this certain situation. In this situation, I would check the flop and re-evaluate on the turn.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
You did say that they had TAGish stats, which makes me think CO will call your bet to try and see a free showdown with their 77+.

Not in a raised pot though. It was different if was limped pre-flop, then our 88/99 hand can call down light very easily. But its not altogether un-feasable to be put on a hand like AQ/AJ/A10 here, then we are betting much more than $2 on the turn. Calling down "may" turn into playing for stacks by the river which is a somewhat unattractive prospect.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
I'll go with its a good, albeit pretty standard bluff.

Really often many of us will call on the button with a decent ace. Other times we may raise, with even the occasional 'refusal to contest' fold. At the moment I consider a suited ACE as decent. At minimum, villain would be confused as to whether you hit the ace, or the draw, and would most likely discount a set in his thinking, tho it might nag at them IF they had an ace.

So your bet here represents an ACE most of the time to most players! And the notion of it forcing better hands to fold is not out of line.

Easy hand to drop tho should resistance materialize.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
Chips
0
I agree with what each of you are saying, but I highly doubt 88/99 hands are folding here. I just feel that we should just save that extra $1.50 or $2 instead of "bluffing" it off. Maybe I am a nit but for the most part, I try not to give money away. I really do not see both of them folding here, especially the CO.
If the CO had maybe weak hand like KQ or KJ, they would fold it, but from my experience at 10NL and 25NL, even those types of hands attempt to make the hero call.
You did say that they had TAGish stats, which makes me think CO will call your bet to try and see a free showdown with their 77+.
I am not saying that "bluffing" this pot is a horrible play, I am just stating what I would do in this certain situation. In this situation, I would check the flop and re-evaluate on the turn.
As he has mentioned in the OP, his intention was to possibly bluff this pot and with an ace on the flop and it's checked to him, he has no choice but to bet at this flop and re-evaluate on the turn if it gets that far.
He has to bet here because (Just as I have mentioned before) aggressive poker is winning poker and the point to betting here is to make better hands muck.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
I agree that aggressive poker is winning poker, obviously, but I just think that betting will not make better hands muck. That is the basis of my main argument. I feel that 77+ will not be that scared of an A. I feel that they would check/call the flop/turn and maybe even the river as long as no more paint cards roll off.
Sure, FP holding Ax is very possible, but FP is going to hit that A 15% of the time, the other 15% going to his x.
 
B

Bentheman87

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Total posts
794
Chips
0
I think better hands will muck, you called a preflop raise they will probably give you credit for the ace. I played a mtt the other day where I raised with 10 10 in MP against one limper. Got two callers flop came with an ace they both checked I bet and they folded, one asked me what I had and said he had QQ the other said he had 77. I guess this case is a little different though since I was the preflop raiser.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
Ben, you of all the people here I expected to help me out with this one. Lol, I remember you posting a hand a while back where you called a pre flop raise with nines, and wanted to continue on with the hand just because of one overcard. I was thinking that if you were one of the villain's with 77+, you would definitely be calling to try and get to showdown.
Maybe I was wrong, or maybe you are just conforming, or maybe I am a complete idiot.
 
Top