[25nl FR] villain calls me down

BB: $9.80 (39.2 bb)
UTG: $6.75 (27 bb)
UTG+1: $24.75 (99 bb)
UTG+2: $22.90 (91.6 bb)
MP1: $3.80 (15.2 bb)
MP2: $19.35 (77.4 bb)
MP3: $22.95 (91.8 bb)
Hero (CO): $34.80 (139.2 bb)
BTN: $7 (28 bb)
SB: $5.45 (21.8 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with A T
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $1.40, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.15, MP2 folds

Flop: ($3.45) 9 3 T (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2.30, UTG+1 calls $2.30

Turn: ($8.05) 4 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4.65, UTG+1 raises to $9.30, Hero calls $4.65

River: ($26.65) 4 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $11.75 and is all-in, Hero calls $11.75

Sorry for posting this to the river. But there's really not a street to ask advice since he calls so much and it's just the general way I play it that I want advice on.

I think you can probably guess what he has but regardless.

This is too aggro right ? AT too weak to bet all streets with ?
I guess I should've realized where I was at when he doubled my turn bet.

So how do I avoid these situations ?
Do I fold the turn ? Do I check the turn before he raises ? IE is it OK to bet flop, be afraid of his call and check call turn and maybe river ?

If you require his stats let me know and I'll get them ASAP.

I just fold turn. Call flop minraise turn from a fish (and I'm assuming he's a fish because not many smart players take this line) is basically always the nuts. It's possible he thinks his JT is the nuts, but I think more often he has a set here. Easy river fold and I think you have to fold turn. With all the draws and bad cards I think betting turn is fine, just fold to the raise imo.

I have a though time judging him.
His stats are somewhere around 12/7/1 ish.
And from the showdowns I've seen and remember he seems to be pretty solid.

So is it safe to assume at 25nl when we get double raised like this 90% of the time they have a set ?
I mean sometimes I do this on raggy rainbow flops after a set mine to get a big ace to fold, since it basically screams set right ?
This is when I dont hit my set.

You are folding a nut flush draw to a min raise here getting rediculous odds? I agree river is a fold even with the odds then(calling isnt terrible imo).

eNTy said:

I have a though time judging him.
His stats are somewhere around 12/7/1 ish.
And from the showdowns I've seen and remember he seems to be pretty solid.

So is it safe to assume at 25nl when we get double raised like this 90% of the time they have a set ?
I mean sometimes I do this on raggy rainbow flops after a set mine to get a big ace to fold, since it basically screams set right ?
This is when I dont hit my set.

Click to expand...

Oh wow against a 12/7 it's a snap-fold imo.

In terms of flat flop min-raise turn as a bluff, it's good to do that against thinking players but honestly (and this is an example) most people at 25nl probably don't fold TP in this spot so I don't think I'd do it as a bluff much.

Oh wait I didn't see flush draw lol. In that case yeah flat turn but then here I think you've gotta fold river still.

Uh we're getting almost 5:1 on the turn, we can't possibly fold that. Not only might our hand be good, but we have at least 8 clean flush outs, more if he's on 9T which he will be some of the time. And he's almost always paying us off.

Agree that betting flop and turn is just fine. But we have to call the turn.

As played I guess we fold river? The only problem with calling the turn is that we feel really committed on the river. Some reads/stats would be nice...either way I guess unless he's really spazzy we can usually assume we're not best on the turn.

edit: n/m I see you didn't see the FD

zachvac said:

Oh wow against a 12/7 it's a snap-fold imo.

In terms of flat flop min-raise turn as a bluff, it's good to do that against thinking players but honestly (and this is an example) most people at 25nl probably don't fold TP in this spot so I don't think I'd do it as a bluff much.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean that.

What I sometimes do, and only when I see them as not dumbasses the ones who can get away from TPTK maybe or at least a big ace that didn't hit, is set mine preflop then double their raise on flop. The classic 'I het a set omagawd double your raise!' move so to speak.

How do you guys feel about betting the flop and just checking the turn behind against a station here?

I would say a min raise is going to be much more scary than a normal raise. If they have a hand like TPTK you will be hard pressed to find someone at 25nl that isnt calling at least a raise on the flop. You can also flat it depending on the board and raise(or flat depending on villian or if it was a 3bet pot) the turn and they may see the raise as a float and get a crying call on TPTK. Obviously it all depends on the person but I dont like a min raise on the flop with a set.

ChuckTs said:

As played I guess we fold river? The only problem with calling the turn is that we feel really committed on the river. Some reads/stats would be nice...either way I guess unless he's really spazzy we can usually assume we're not best on the turn.

edit: n/m I see you didn't see the FD

Click to expand...

eNTy said:

I have a though time judging him.
His stats are somewhere around 12/7/1 ish.
And from the showdowns I've seen and remember he seems to be pretty solid.

Click to expand...

I remember now, I saw the FD when playing this hand, but looked over it when reviewing it and posting it just now.

So yeah I guess calling turn is ok here, but let's assume I don't have a FD then we're always folding ?

widowmaker89 said:

I would say a min raise is going to be much more scary than a normal raise. If they have a hand like TPTK you will be hard pressed to find someone at 25nl that isnt calling at least a raise on the flop. You can also flat it depending on the board and raise(or flat depending on villian or if it was a 3bet pot) the turn and they may see the raise as a float and get a crying call on TPTK. Obviously it all depends on the person but I dont like a min raise on the flop with a set.

Click to expand...

We still aren't on the same page I think.

I'm not making this move with a set.
I'm making it when I set mine and miss. To make it look like I hit the set and take it down.

Maybe it's just lucky that villains folded most of the times I remember doing this. Could be they didn't hit their big pair and would've folded to a normal sized reraise too.

Steveg1976 said:

How do you guys feel about betting the flop and just checking the turn behind against a station here?

Click to expand...

As explained, villain is a solid TAG.

Can you explain why we would check the turn vs stations ?
Don't we want to extract more hand from our hand when we think it's best ?

eNTy said:

So yeah I guess calling turn is ok here, but let's assume I don't have a FD then we're always folding ?

Click to expand...

without the flush draw, there's good reason not to bet turn so you don't need to call the raise.

unless villain is spewy calling station or we have a terrible image, betting three streets will not be called by less that TPTK, so we don't lose value when we check one of the streets, and that's typically the turn.

eNTy said:

As explained, villain is a solid TAG.

Can you explain why we would check the turn vs stations ?
Don't we want to extract more hand from our hand when we think it's best ?

Click to expand...

My thinking might be a bit results oriented in this spot, but you have top pair top kicker and already got called, so you aren't likely way ahead if you are ahead at all of a solid TAG (disregard my station comment). I won't/don't usually bet one pair hands for all three streets. So I am looking to check it somewhere and the turn is usually where I do that. To help induce bluffs and and get calls from even weaker hands and to not get it all in. Also you have picked up a very big draw that if the villian has a set will feel compelled to pay off for a reasonable bet. It just seems like being in position on this hand allows you to punish him by just taking the free card in this spot, as it helps you a lot more than it can hurt you since you aren't sitting on a really big hand anyway. If it comes a blank and he bets you can fold/call for less than if you raise the turn, if you hit your flush you can raise/shove etc.

fwiw just trying to get into abit of HA myself to help me improve also.

I check turn and then re access on the river, villian may be slowplaying a set here or 2 pair, would you put 33, 99 in his range or even 910. I dont get his limp UTG though and then call your raise.

I say set or 910 as played but just what I think. Also are you willing to go to the river with just 9 outs of catching your flush?

Jurn8 said:

fwiw just trying to get into abit of HA myself to help me improve also.

I check turn and then re access on the river, villian may be slowplaying a set here or 2 pair, would you put 33, 99 in his range or even 910. I dont get his limp UTG though and then call your raise.

I say set or 910 as played but just what I think. Also are you willing to go to the river with just 9 outs of catching your flush?

Click to expand...

The line of limping from any pos and then calling a raise is like the standard way people will play low-mid pocket pairs here.

Also I think we established that with the nut flush draw it is ok to call this turn bet, giving me good odds.

eNTy said:

The line of limping from any pos and then calling a raise is like the standard way people will play low-mid pocket pairs here.

Also I think we established that with the nut flush draw it is ok to call this turn bet, giving me good odds.

Click to expand...

So your saying he could have a set here and that is in his range, also you think TPTK isnt going to be good enough if we miss the flush draw?

Question.....

Steveg1976 said:

How do you guys feel about betting the flop and just checking the turn behind against a station here?

Click to expand...

Reasoning....

Steveg1976 said:

My thinking might be a bit results oriented in this spot, but you have top pair top kicker and already got called, so you aren't likely way ahead if you are ahead at all of a solid TAG (disregard my station comment). I won't/don't usually bet one pair hands for all three streets. So I am looking to check it somewhere and the turn is usually where I do that. To help induce bluffs and and get calls from even weaker hands and to not get it all in. Also you have picked up a very big draw that if the villian has a set will feel compelled to pay off for a reasonable bet. It just seems like being in position on this hand allows you to punish him by just taking the free card in this spot, as it helps you a lot more than it can hurt you since you aren't sitting on a really big hand anyway. If it comes a blank and he bets you can fold/call for less than if you raise the turn, if you hit your flush you can raise/shove etc.

Click to expand...

Anyone?

Jurn8 said:

So your saying he could have a set here and that is in his range, also you think TPTK isnt going to be good enough if we miss the flush draw?

Click to expand...

Yes, I know the results, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone make a double raise like that ever and not have the set.
Unless maybe they're 'smart' enough to use it as a bluff agaisnt someone who thinks double raise=set always.
But unlikely at 25nl and below imo.

I should've folded river when I didnt hit the flush .

eNTy said:

Yes, I know the results, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone make a double raise like that ever and not have the set.
Unless maybe they're 'smart' enough to use it as a bluff agaisnt someone who thinks double raise=set always.
But unlikely at 25nl and below imo.

I should've folded river when I didnt hit the flush .

Click to expand...

Yeah I agree the double raise = set always isnt true, I dont have any experience at 25NL yet but maybe re evaluate his turn re raise its 50% of the pot I think.

Also yeah fold river with TPTK, did he have a set/full house on river?

Was a tough turn decision IMO could have gone either way

Yeah he had 33 obv.