[25nl FR] JJ 3-way vs drooler and shortie

SB is a 36/17/3 with 7% 3bet over small sample.
BB is a 87/40/1.3 drooler.


BTN: $4.30 (17.2 bb)
SB: $9.10 (36.4 bb)
BB: $54.40 (217.6 bb)
UTG+1: $24.90 (99.6 bb)
MP1: $32.50 (130 bb)
MP2: $4.30 (17.2 bb)
Hero (MP3): $28.55 (114.2 bb)
CO: $31.20 (124.8 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with J:spade: J:diamond:
UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, SB raises to $9.10 and is all-in, BB calls $8.85, MP1 folds, Hero calls $7.85

Flop: ($27.55) 6:club: K:heart: 6:diamond: (3 players, 1 is all-in)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($27.55) 7:club: (3 players, 1 is all-in)
BB checks, Hero ??

I wasn't really sure what to do preflop. I don't like folding because even if SB has me beat BB is such a big spewer he's willing to pay me off for sure and I def crush his range.

Thoughts about flop ? And then turn, BB has def expressed weakness.
The odds that he has a K are now greatly diminished in my eyes because even him would bet out. It's possible he has an underpair or an Ace that didn't connect.

What is our line ?

Personally I like betting around $10 on turn and shoving close to any river when called.

I think if we had pocket queens here I might check this one back. People play so very passive in "protected pots" and he could certainly be checking along a king. But there's just too many overcards that can make life suck for us, plus he's terrible so he could call with worse pairs.

I definitely make it smallish, and v-bet for like $7.50.

Is preflop fine ?

Any argument for shoving the drooler in too ?

I don't see why we're not just shoving preflop.

eNTy said:

Is preflop fine ?

Any argument for shoving the drooler in too ?

Click to expand...

I have recently discovered that I have no idea what's going on preflop playing full ring. So I try not to comment on that.

However, I 4-bet just about any reasonable chance I get, and I'd have prolly jammed him in preflop. But then again, I also 5-bet bluff AQs, which is apparently wrong playing full ring so take my advice with some salt...

SB: $43 (43 bb)
BB: $308.64 (308.6 bb)
MP: $75.85 (75.9 bb)
CO: $118.95 (119 bb)
Hero (BTN): $98.50 (98.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A♦ Q♦
MP folds, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, CO raises to $30, Hero raises to $98.50 and is all-in, CO folds

I didn't realize this was FR, but does it really matter vs an %87vpip player? We crush the SB's range, and BB is terrible...just shove.

How come you never show the outcome of these hands that you post ?

Because they have no bearing on our decision. If someone is expected to have hand type X %99 of the time, but shows up with hand type Y, does that mean that if we made a decision best suited against hand type X then we made a mistake?

Agree with shoving this preflop. These guys are ridiculously horrible so I probably fistpump as well.

I have found fistpumping is -EV to the lifespan of my monitor so I try to refrain from doing it.

And yeah I think it would've been better if I shoved.
But I think as played we agree on betting the turn right ?

Thought I'd give my view.

You're asking about what to do on the turn because I think you missed a bet on the flop.

You don't care what the All In player has because he is done with the hand, but a bet on the flop does a few valuable things for you.
You don't care about the protection you might give to the All In player because this is cash play, so stacking someone will hopefully put more cash on the table to win if he reloads. If he wins the pot, his stats aren't very good, so you can hope to win it back, (plus the money from the third player in this pot).

By betting the flop, you could push out a player that could improve with two cards to come, bettering your chances of winning the pot.
It also starts a side pot for you to win and you are most likely ahead on the flop against these player's ranges.
Lastly, it will tell you at the very least where you are in the hand, making your decisions on the turn and river easier. If you bet and he calls, he probably has a king. If you bet and he raises, he Does have a king and you can save money on future streets.

Regardless of whether you bet the Flop, Turn or river, with the amount of money in the pot going to the flop compared to the size of your stack, by calling the all in, you are pretty much priced in. You start the hand with $28ish and there is $28ish in the pot going to the flop.
This being said, if you did the quick math when the BB called the All In, it would have been fine to just Shove Preflop because of the math.

Just my thoughts....

There are a few flaws in your reasoning 1morecard, I think.

For one, the BB is very bad so it is likely that giving him a free card will not dramatically hurt our chance of still being ahead of him.

Second as you mentioned the pot is big. So if I bet the flop it's going to be hard to fold, especially because I have already a big part of my stack in the pot and because BB is so bad. Even if he has a king I still don't really know where I'm at. He is very capable to flat my bet on flop. If he shoves I can't really give him 100% credit for the king.

Third I don't want the BB out of the hand because we crush his range and SB is already all in. This is not a tourny so betting to get him to fold is useless. We want him in the hand and stack off as well. If I bet flop he's most likely going to give me credit for the king and fold probably. This would be bad for us for obvious reasons.

Lastly I think there is still plenty of opportunity to get BB all in on later streets. Say we bet between $7-$10 on turn that leaves us with $12-$9 on the river which should be no problem to get in since the size of the pot will be huge by then and he's almost obliged to call.

If there are flaws in my thinking here let me know please.

That's what I love about Poker. The varying opinions.

I see where you're coming from and agree that any bet on the flop would price you in even more, so you might as well push. Thus in hindsight, I believe that no matter how you look at the hand, the correct play was to just push PF. You're committed from the call of the 1st All In.

As far as keeping the other player in the pot to potentially win more, we don't necessarily agree I guess.

In tournament, I would check this down to try to eliminate the All In player, (Depending on what stage the tourney is at of course). By pushing the third player out of the hand in a tournament, you are giving the All In player protection, so it doesn't make sense.
In Cash play, (which I spend 85% of my time playing), I am only try to win what's in the pot at the time if I think I have the best hand. Your JJ is probably good, but allowing the other player to see the last two cards is giving them two more chances to beat your hand. I agree that not much is pushing this player off the pot, both because of the Odds he will be getting, but also because his stats dictate he'll probably call. The chance of your JJ beating just one player is better than it beating two players with two cards to come. That's all I was getting at.
I only believe in sucking others in if I flop a monster like a set, Ace High Flush, etc.

Not to mention that you say the BB is really bad, so what's to say he's not in there with a junk hand like K2o, Q6o, etc. He could also have something like 78, 45, 57 - sooted or unsooted. Wouldn't be the first runner, runner straight I've seen. Far fetched, but just trying to explain why it can be risky to allow someone to stay in the pot.

I don't believe in gambling with the weaker players unless I have a monster. If they are as bad as you say, you can expect to get their chips down the road.

Oh, one more thing. You say you thought about betting $10 on the turn and shoving the river. He'd call the $10 and the Shove, so you might as well shove the Turn.

Just my thoughts....

I don't believe he'll call the shove on turn. He is bad like that.

He can possibly have any of the weak hands you mentioned which is why I'm not worried about giving cards as it's like 3 outs for him to hit and it gives me a bigger chance to get all his money by checking.

If we we believe we are ahead, why are we not working to get BB in ? That is also the reason why I bet turn, the flushdraw is out there so best to make him pay to see.

Incidentally he did. I bet $10 on turn, he called, river was a club, completing the flush, and he folded to my $9 river shove lol.