[25NL FR] AA 4bet Bet Size?

Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
How big is our bet size here or are we just jamming, Do player types still come into play if its 3way?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $25.15 (100.6 bb)
BTN: $27.30 (109.2 bb)
SB: $14.30 (57.2 bb)
BB: $9.55 (38.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $33.85 (135.4 bb)
MP1: $15.45 (61.8 bb)
MP2: $35.75 (143 bb)
MP3: $11.25 (45 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with A:club: A:heart:
Hero raises to $1, 4 folds, BTN raises to $2.50, SB folds, BB calls $2.25, Hero ??
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I probably make it $9.60-$10.

If both villains just call then I shove any flop and I obv call if the button five-bet shoves pre. If just the button calls, action will depend on the flop texture and reads as to how I'd get the rest of the money in. I'd want to be betting enough to make sure the big blind is all in if he calls though.

Reason I figure we make it about $10 is if we shove here then only the very top end of the button's range can call us - without reads, would it be fair to say we're probably not getting called by less than QQ+ / maybe AK for just over a full stack?

Ideally we'd like to get action from a wider range than that. We may be able to induce a shove from lower pairs and AK is probably more likely to five-bet us than it is to call our shove.

Drawing hands may stay too, figuring that the big blind's probably calling whatever happens (because why would you call for 25% of your stack and then not get the rest in when raised?) and they might have decent odds to draw.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Lots of lines are possible here, tbh.

If the shortstacker in BB is very aggressive postflop, I like flatting here preflop expecting him to jam any flop, which we could flat and keep our hand under-represented, which would allow btn to come over the top with TP kind of hands. that would be lovely.

otherwise, 4betting is fine. But it does show a ****load of strength. I like shoving actually because it represents AK and could get called by a lot of pair hands.
 
Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
I wouldnt like making it $10 if the BTN called which would force the BB all in, I dont like playing pots when somebody is already all in against another villian.

If I make it more im basically having to jam any flop and am committed, if i make it $14/15 then I only have about the same left in my stack again.

If I shoved here would it not scream strength?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I wouldnt like making it $10 if the BTN called which would force the BB all in, I dont like playing pots when somebody is already all in against another villian.

If I make it more im basically having to jam any flop and am committed, if i make it $14/15 then I only have about the same left in my stack again.

If I shoved here would it not scream strength?

Shoving here doesn't nescessarily scream strength - the opposite, if anything. As Belgo points out, it looks a lot more like AK than anything else because it looks like it doesn't want a call. Surely AA/KK wants action and makes a bet that's more likely to get called?

I'm just still not sure which gets us more action. While we haven't got any reads to go on, whether we bet $10, bet $15 or shove I'd be expecting the big blind's chips to get in the middle - regardless of what the button does. I just can't see what hands starts with 38BB, calls off 25% of their stack then fold for the rest when raised.

As for not liking to play pots when someone's already all in against another villain... I'm interested in your rationale on that one. Personally, I can't think of a better spot for it than this. We're holding the best hand in the game before the flop and we're a massive favourite even against two opponents. We want them both to get their chips in the middle.

If they both call a bet of $10 before the flop, the pot should be big enough that the button will have a hard time folding all but the junkiest of hands on the flop (assuming he hasn't five-bet shoved preflop), and he should be calling us with a lot of stuff we have beat.

Which brings me to my other point - since we want all their chips in the middle, being "committed" really isn't a problem for us in my eyes. The last thing we should be doing is playing this hand scared.
 
Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
hmm I spose, Im just curious of the best line to take to get the most money in the middle.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
I think we all are :)

Do you have any reads on the villains?
 
Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
no reads as it was early on in the session sorry lol, I agree that shorty is coming along for the ride anyway but I want the other dudes chips also
 
eNTy

eNTy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Total posts
6,936
Chips
0
I don't really see the problem with comitting yourself with AA tbh jake.

You're ahead either way and only a really bad flop would hurt you.

And even then ur almost forced to get it in on flop.
Make it $10 ish and if BTN just flats shove almost any flop imo.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
I shove because I'd do the same with AK and that's what I'm hoping they put me on because who shoves with Aces right? What would you do with AK here Jake?

Alternatively the BBs small stack size could allow you to do something a little different. If you 4bet small (to no more than $6) you allow the BB to put in the rest of his $$ and you can still 6bet shove? Say you make it $6 and the BTN just calls (of course if he pushes that's great too) then the BB goes AI you can shove.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Chips
0
The only problem I see with shoving here is that do enough people really make that connection at 25nl?
 
daxter70

daxter70

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Total posts
990
Chips
0
The only problem I see with shoving here is that do enough people really make that connection at 25nl?

this is a really good question..and i have found out that most people dont make ANY connection from 50nl down...they are there to gamble and give/take money with any two cards..be it K10 or J4 in a 4 bet pot or not. and any pair they have preflop is always good..so i think shoving and insta call from both is standard:mad:
 
Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
I shove because I'd do the same with AK and that's what I'm hoping they put me on because who shoves with Aces right? What would you do with AK here Jake?

Alternatively the BBs small stack size could allow you to do something a little different. If you 4bet small (to no more than $6) you allow the BB to put in the rest of his $$ and you can still 6bet shove? Say you make it $6 and the BTN just calls (of course if he pushes that's great too) then the BB goes AI you can shove.

I fold AK here OOP, I dont like playing AK OOP
 
Jurn8

Jurn8

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Total posts
5,348
Chips
0
I dont see how folding AKo OOP in a 3way pot is nitty?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Alternatively the BBs small stack size could allow you to do something a little different. If you 4bet small (to no more than $6) you allow the BB to put in the rest of his $$ and you can still 6bet shove? Say you make it $6 and the BTN just calls (of course if he pushes that's great too) then the BB goes AI you can shove.

While we don't have any solid reads, I think the chances of the big blind pushing all in before the flop of his own volition have gotta be pretty close to zero. He started the hand with 38BB and he's cold called a 10BB bet already - that spells loose-passive drooler to me.

Even if he were likely to shove though, we've gotta be very careful with the bet sizing if you wanted to try that plan - it definitely couldn't go above $6. Making it $6 is a $3.50 raise. The big blind only has $3.55 behind after that, and we need his shove to be at least $3.50 on top so the betting action gets re-opened. If we raise to $6.50, for example, he'll be shoving for less than a minimum raise and we'll only have the option to call.

I prefer the $10 (or more, but that's my favourite number here) play for two reasons. One is that it definitely commits the big blind's chips - I doubt he's folding anything before the flop, but if we bet $6 and he just calls, there's a chance he'll fold on the flop if he doesn't connect and we won't have gotten his last $3.55.

The other reason is we're giving better odds to drawing hands - it'd be $3.50 for the button to call in a $11.25 pot, and the big blind gets $3.50 into a $14.75 pot if the button calls. Even if that's still not quite the correct price for the big blind to call, they'd be making less of a mistake by doing so. We want them to make a bigger mistake.

Wow... that was long :p. Cliff notes version: I'd only attempt that (raise to $6 with the intention of six-bet shoving after the big blind pushes) if I knew 100% that the big blind was definitely pushing. And I don't see how we can know that.

As for folding AK in this spot... what, for $1.50 more in a $6.25 pot? I'd certainly be at least calling.

Besides it's the big blind that's truly OOP, not us, and I think some of the button's positional advantage is negated. The most likely scenario if we flat call with AK here is the big blind checks all the flops he doesn't connect with, we make whatever action we feel is appropriate and then the button is left with not one but two opponents to act after him if he bets / raises.
 
Top